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**keifer kahn** · 07-13-2004, 09:09 AM

Old Flags,

Grommets are commonly seen feature on vehicle id flags in period photos,yet you consider them not to be a period german flag characteristic.

Please explain.

**J Melvin** · 07-13-2004, 09:20 AM

OK, I'm going to duck after asking this question, but the majority of these balkan cross ID flags that I've seen have brass grommets. Never saw one with zinc or steel. Brass used in this fashion seems to be very out of the ordinary in German construction (especially late). I've always been bothered by the brass grommets. On the ID flags that have the swastika as the center mark, are the grommets typically brass????

**keifer kahn** · 07-13-2004, 09:40 AM

Jack,

A comparative with brass being used late is in the cases of some war badges made from kriegsmetall still utilising existing stocks of earlier manufactured brass pins.
The use of brass grommets in a late war flag could be similar anomalie.

As for party flags being devoid of markings,i am sure a large quantity of flags simply came with paper RZM tags(which would include the maker code,Which to all intent purposes is the same as a maker mark).
Same as some party approved buckles,no maker on the buckle but the makers info is on the tag.
In the case of a used flag ,the tag would certainly not of lasted long.Chances are the tag would of also be removed before the flag was displayed.
Same as most insignia that came with paper rzm tags.They were removed before application.

Im sure this is why so many party flags are unmarked.

Bill Shea has standarte on his site that is unmarked but has a paper rzm tag.

**J Melvin** · 07-13-2004, 09:59 AM

Keifer, a good analogy. But, looking at grommets, early and late, brass just does not seem to be the metal of choice. Cap grommets are typically either zinc or steel. Zeltbahn grommets (a natural style to be interchanged for identification flag corners) are never brass. Regardless of lack of photo evidence of the ID flag ever being used, the what-seems-to-be uncharacteristic finding of brass being used for grommets on a supposedly period manufactured item is really my biggest question about the banners.

**keifer kahn** · 07-13-2004, 10:33 AM

Jack

I see your point.The way i look at it is,that even though perhaps unusual,brass still is a period metal.So nothing is impossible.
As with everything in this sometimes confusing hobby,if you dont feel comfortable,dont even consider buying it.
As for these balkan cross flags,i dont ever see me buying one while they are so controversial.

Back to the unmarked party flag question.Bill Shea has at the moment two pennants both with paper rzm tags on their snap clips.if these pennants were to be used,the tags would effectively have to be removed.
Basically leaving them unmarked.

**Bob Coleman** · 07-13-2004, 10:33 AM

I do not think the argument against brass grommets is valid. For one thing, it is possible that these flags were an earlier manufacture and were not utilized due to the fact they were not as popular as the swastika flag. Secondly, I agree that if they were late, the brass grommets could be of stock produced previous to the period of war shortages. Government contractors always produce more than is required. I know that during the Viet Nam War, the US government was issuing Purple Hearts of World War II vintage. they same vintage decorations may still be in use as of the Iraq conflict. I think this thread has gotten to the point that further discussion is not necessary.
Bob

**bodes** · 07-13-2004, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by klaushund

I do not think the argument against brass grommets is valid. For one thing, it is possible that these flags were an earlier manufacture and were not utilized due to the fact they were not as popular as the swastika flag. Secondly, I agree that if they were late, the brass grommets could be of stock produced previous to the period of war shortages. Government contractors always produce more than is required. I know that during the Viet Nam War, the US government was issuing Purple Hearts of World War II vintage. they same vintage decorations may still be in use as of the Iraq conflict. I think this thread has gotten to the point that further discussion is not necessary.
Bob

...or maybe the red backdrops w/brass grommets were left over stock from earlier in the war and wasn't until later that the balkan cross was sewn on...That's not unusual for contractors to have an enormouus overproduction on items for later usage...case in point, I own a german stick grenade with a 1938 handle and 1943 head...paint matches nicely... appears to be a period match

**J Melvin** · 07-13-2004, 02:20 PM

What is funny to me is that all of these hypotheses go right against the golden rule that is so often chimed in when somebody questions an item with so called "provenance". That being "Believe the item and not the story." It seems that the "golden rule" does have its exceptions as we rely upon the story to authenticate an item that seemingly is otherwise devoid of any history within the Third Reich itself.

**bodes** · 07-13-2004, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Jack Melvin

What is funny to me is that all of these hypotheses go right against the golden rule that is so often chimed in when somebody questions an item with so called "provenance". That being "Believe the item and not the story." It seems that the "golden rule" does have its exceptions as we rely upon the story to authenticate an item that seemingly is otherwise devoid of any history within the Third Reich itself.

Unfortunately Jack, alot of the so-called provenance is slowly blowing away in the wind any how....Most of us are only happy when we shake down the veteran personally...others when they get the stuff from a widow...others from the family with documentation....and lastly those w/bogus documentation....kinda like a pyramid....

One day when the last veteran shuffles off this mortal chord, it'll be up to us to carry on their story anyhow.... And then we'll really see some stories being told, if that hasn't already happened....

**J Melvin** · 07-13-2004, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by bodes

Unfortunately Jack, alot of the so-called provenance is slowly blowing away in the wind any how....Most of us are only happy when we shake down the veteran personally...others when they get the stuff from a widow...others from the family with documentation....and lastly those w/bogus documentation....kinda like a pyramid....

One day when the last veteran shuffles off this mortal chord, it'll be up to us to carry on their story anyhow.... And then we'll really see some stories being told, if that hasn't already happened....

**Perry Floyd** · 07-13-2004, 03:02 PM

Oh well it comes back to the only two possibilties like I mentioned..
Everyone has lied about the same exact piece..
Or they are real veterans,we really bought them from the veteran and they really brought them back...
It's not one man trying to defend his one odd flag, it's many that have went through the same path. Buying this exact flag from a veteran, the story is the same across the country, it's happen to many collectors over and over in the modern era and of the 50's and 60's through the 70's. If it is bogus it would have to be the biggest scam of all Third Reich items. Not to believe this many vets that brought this item back across the country really is denying they were a vet...
Today buying something from the veteran that brought it back doesnt make a damn anymore, and to who do we hold this credit too? To dismiss so many WWII veterans..how would they fool so many to purchase this flag from them? Who would believe them anyhow...

I'll defend their "story"...I believe they were there...I believe they picked up these flags there...

**Bob Coleman** · 07-13-2004, 04:21 PM

Perry-

For the old timers in the hobby such as myself, there were no "golden rules" in the early days of collecting-the 50's and 60's. The few reproductions that were available were poorly made and would fool no one that knew anything basic about collecting. if it came from a vet, it was original. Manufactured parts pieces were obvious. To manufacture a well made flag that there was no demand for and the cost of manufacture would exceed the price attained in sale defys logic. Many of the newbies question everything they have not seen before, which is not unreasonable due to the world of collecting they have entered. However, at times, the experience of old time knowledgable collectors must have some value in these matters.
Bob

**Gregory Koepp** · 07-13-2004, 06:37 PM

on the old time issue,

well i'm sure i'm not the only one who has handled or talked to alot of people and originations on particular items. as this one (the flags in question) in particular, and just about all of them question this item and stay away from it. history itself should have some merit?
i would as most would like to see if the people who recived one from a vet ask to see how/where/when they found it. maybe there is some type pattern??
most vet's kind of remember where they picked an item up at. (most have a story).

greg

**Bob Coleman** · 07-13-2004, 07:19 PM

Greg-
Fourty to fifty years ago, we didn't care about those kind of issues because all of the things we got from the vets was original. You can't mix today's issues with those of a half a century ago because they do not apply.
Bob

**bodes** · 07-13-2004, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by klaushund

Greg-
Fourty to fifty years ago, we didn't care about those kind of issues because all of the things we got from the vets was original. You can't mix today's issues with those of a half a century ago because they do not apply.
Bob

Double that with the fact that alot of Veterans minds don't 100% remember exactly where/when certain items were obtained...memories fade..

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