Identification Flag

[keifer kahn]

Well Done Greg,

I have always locked these out of my mind as a potential collectible due to the controversy and general vagueness of their origins.

Im not defending Peters statement in regards to the regulations but im sure he must have seen some evidence to support his statement.Either that or hes making up falsisms to try and legitimise an item.

Bill Shea,who i have always regarded as a reliable source for flags ,has a balkan cross example at the moment for sale.I may email him to see what official literature he has on them.

[Gregory Koepp]

well here is the first responce:

Hi Greg

I'm just in the middle of moving the office.. so I'm up to my eyeballs the next few weeks.

Yes.. I do have reference to the original German regulations regarding the use of the balkin flags. Once we get unpacked, I'll forward you what info I have (I do believe that there is a quote someplace on my webpage giving the exact institution dates for the use of this flag).

Off the top of my head

-The Balkin were definately 100% issued to vehicle crews. I have had quite a few examples of these years that were direct pick up's from Canadian vets. (Ask Bill Shea as well, I'm sure he will tell you the same thing)

-Most surviving examples are in excellent condition as they were very seldom used after 1941. The Germans lost air superiorty after this time period, the last thing they wanted to do was attach a large flag to the top of their vehicle. Never the less, these flags were issed to vehicle crews right until the end of the war. Over the last 30 years.. I have seen very few period photo's of the balkin in use...the photos are RARE for the obvious reasons, however.. I have seen at least several photo's. (compared with 100's of the earlier type).


Pete

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well he said he's seen photos?? why haven't anyone else who are flag collectors seen such??? i'll e-mail him back to get more info and also when i get anything from him i'll post for BOTH SIDES

greg

[Gregory Koepp]

he just sent me another one:

Hi Greg

I'll see what I can did up.. It will be a week or so. All my reference books etc are currenly packed away for the move.

You have permission to post my comments. These flags have always been a no brainer in my opinion.. The first one I obtained was back in the mid 70's, came back with a Carlton York vet who aquired it in Italy in 1944.

Again.. definately 100% war time production.

Personally, they don't do much for me.. I would rather have the Swastika version if I wanted one, they are just much cooler. But never-the-less they are a bonified legit example.

I'll e-mail you what I have when we get unpacked. I have all the original institution dates & orders if reference books someplace

Glad I could help.. make sure to say hi at everybody at the forum for me.. tell them to keep up the good work!

Pete
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so when i get something i will post....

greg

[keifer kahn]

Hi greg,

Well done on the info from peter.

I suppose Peter does have the privelige of handling many more items including photos than the majority of us.A photo would be great but a lack of doesent mean these things are fake.it would be just a confirming point.

If indeed,he has the official regulations on these flags,then that would be irrefutable evidence to support the existence of these flags.
I dont think it would be possible to ignore such evidence in spite of the lack of photgraphic evidence.
But lets just wait and see,what he comes up with.

I just want to know either way.

[Gregory Koepp]

ok, i recived this in the mail today:


Dear Greg

Here is the information you needed.

Official German Orders

Ob.d.H./Gen.St.d.H./Ausb.Abt. (Ia) Nr. 450/40 vom 8.3.1940.

& Altered by order

#363, April 2, 1941, in AHM, April 21,1941

Quote.

" A swastika flag and orange smoke are to be utilized by all troops for recognition purposes when in a combat zone, The swastika flag, according to circumstances, to be spread out on the ground, to be waved to and fro, or to be streched across a vehicle. The orange smoke is to be expressly used if the danger of attack by friendly aircraft persists."

"The swastika flag discussed above was either a standard national flag or a special issue flag with metal grommet at each corner for tying down purposes. Later in the war, the use of the Balken cross flag (white circle with a balken cross in its center rather than a swastika, on a red field) gradually replaced the swastika flag. It should be noted that these flags were rarely used in the final stages of the war because the Allies held undisputed air superiority over most fronts"

"When the above recognition devices were not available to front line units, German crews generally painted white identification symbols on the top of their vehicles. The usually took the form of the Balken crosses, swastikas or rectanglular bars"

End quote

Reference. Uniforms, Organization and History of the Panzertruppe. Bender & Odegard. (1980)

* Note the book has a nice forward by General der Panzertruppe Hasso-Eccard Frhr. Von Manteuffel. (Formerly Commander-in-Chief, 5<SUP>th</SUP> and 3<SUP>rd</SUP> Panzer Army)

Hope this helps.

Warmest Regards

Peter Whamond


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from reading this it sounds like this is the opion of the writer? if anyone can really look this up it would really help.

so we really need a copy of the order, for the real proof? other wise i feel and read it as this is the opion of the writer.

greg

[keifer kahn]

The first paragraph reads like an order but where is the mention of the balkan cross.All i read is swastika flag and orange smoke.

The following paragraphs appear, as you say,to be book authors text.

[KoCook]

ok, i recived this in the mail today:


Dear Greg

Here is the information you needed.

Official German Orders

Ob.d.H./Gen.St.d.H./Ausb.Abt. (Ia) Nr. 450/40 vom 8.3.1940.

& Altered by order

#363, April 2, 1941, in AHM, April 21,1941

Quote.

" A swastika flag and orange smoke are to be utilized by all troops for recognition purposes when in a combat zone, The swastika flag, according to circumstances, to be spread out on the ground, to be waved to and fro, or to be streched across a vehicle. The orange smoke is to be expressly used if the danger of attack by friendly aircraft persists."

"The swastika flag discussed above was either a standard national flag or a special issue flag with metal grommet at each corner for tying down purposes. Later in the war, the use of the Balken cross flag (white circle with a balken cross in its center rather than a swastika, on a red field) gradually replaced the swastika flag. It should be noted that these flags were rarely used in the final stages of the war because the Allies held undisputed air superiority over most fronts"

"When the above recognition devices were not available to front line units, German crews generally painted white identification symbols on the top of their vehicles. The usually took the form of the Balken crosses, swastikas or rectanglular bars"

End quote

Reference. Uniforms, Organization and History of the Panzertruppe. Bender & Odegard. (1980)

* Note the book has a nice forward by General der Panzertruppe Hasso-Eccard Frhr. Von Manteuffel. (Formerly Commander-in-Chief, 5<SUP>th</SUP> and 3<SUP>rd</SUP> Panzer Army)

Hope this helps.

Warmest Regards

Peter Whamond


------------------------------------

from reading this it sounds like this is the opion of the writer? if anyone can really look this up it would really help.

so we really need a copy of the order, for the real proof? other wise i feel and read it as this is the opion of the writer.

greg

Very interesting, since the order was issued in April 2, 1941 could this be the reason
that we see the Balkan cross painted on the vehicles? I always wondered why they
had them on the tanks, could this be it?
I'm sorry but I find these flags really interesting and something like this just adds to it.

[keifer kahn]

Actually you will see balkan crosses painted on vehicles during the invasion of poland.They were removed because they made good aiming marks for anti tank guns.

[C. Betz]

Balkan Cross

Just came upon this thread as a related topic for my early party flag/banner.

Gregory Koepp asks for photographs of the Balkan Cross flag being used. Here is one even better example: The World At War Series, specifically footage of the invasion of Poland. Tanks are shown on the move with the Balkan Cross.

Sincerely,

Charles Betz