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**Perry Floyd** · 07-10-2004, 11:56 PM

If that's so how could so many vets across the country or those that are deceased, their family, all have purchased the exact same reproduction to dupe everyone years later??

So called vets, so everyone was lieing about being a veteran and bringing it back, how could you get that many veterans to lie about their service then all use the same piece to dupe people years later for a couple hundred bucks??

Please give a educated realistic scenerio with merit..

**oldflagswanted** · 07-11-2004, 01:02 AM

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**Perry Floyd** · 07-11-2004, 01:47 AM

All the veterans I've talked to never paid for war booty. The form which you refer I've seen many times over, it is nearly allways in generic terms as I mentioned, fakers love these forms to put with bogus items so they will help move the item. Helmet fakers love them as you can put it with any helmet because the term is listed such as helmet, German Helmet, Nazi helmet and so on, same for rifles, belt buckles and flags. I've probably seen 25 of these forms. All were worded with little detail of the item. Also, never have I heard a veteran concerned with customs or having custom problems, most never bother with obtaining "capture papers", first I've heard veterans having trouble getting stuff through customs.
I have purchased numerous linen NSDAP flags void of any markings, you know the most common of Third Reich flags.

**oldflagswanted** · 07-11-2004, 04:29 AM

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**Perry Floyd** · 07-11-2004, 09:25 AM

Old flag I have it because it was free and from the veterans wife..
Again the most common Third Reich flag was more often than not void of markings.

**George Stimson** · 07-11-2004, 09:32 AM

Just axin'....

My Balkan Cross flag has a seam running length-wise down its center. Isn't that unusual and not indicative of a single, mass-produced item?

**oldflagswanted** · 07-11-2004, 12:13 PM

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**Gregory Koepp** · 07-11-2004, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by Perry Floyd

If that's so how could so many vets across the country or those that are deceased, their family, all have purchased the exact same reproduction to dupe everyone years later??

So called vets, so everyone was lieing about being a veteran and bringing it back, how could you get that many veterans to lie about their service then all use the same piece to dupe people years later for a couple hundred bucks??

Please give a educated realistic scenerio with merit..

i'm not saying they are trying to dupe anyone? i'm saying that if they really recived it, it was probley AFTER the end of war.

on the veterans issue, well you don't think some people try to make an item better by saying it came from a Vet or even the person saying he was a Vet?
i have been in military shows with friends and have SEEN for myself older men come to the tables one by one and try to pass off an item saying they were the one who picked it up. until my friend who is an expert in military history began to ask questions did their stories start to not match up?? and have seen some even after being caught in a lie, quickly change his story and move on to the next table saying the same, but being more careful in what he says. (have seen)

(Please give a educated realistic scenerio with merit..)

why would you ask something like this? what you haven't been getting educated responces?? with oldflagswanted giving even more educated reponces gives me the same feeling that if you really beleave it's real, well have at it. my question is to you tho is: why are there not even (1) ONE in any museums??? with the experts who research the background and history of German flags saying these were not of time and not in any books or museums why would you really beleave that they were used or even made by the Germans??

please anwser the why not even ONE museum has one in their collection??

you know inside yourself that they are very questionable...

with all the german documentation and nothing mentioning these in any way should send the anwser better than any words can say...

greg

**Perry Floyd** · 07-11-2004, 07:28 PM

So you know for sure there's not one in any museum in the world?

That's allmost as bad saying it's not real because there's not a picture of one in War Booty. This is what I meant by educated, something I've noticed you have struggled with since your coming here.

**bodes** · 07-11-2004, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by oldflagswanted

Besides no wartime photo existing of this flag, I've also never found
in any of the captured German document archives a Nazi period design specification, use regulation, production order, procurement contract,
flag identification book plate, or any other reference to this Balken Cross
flag! So even if you assume for some odd reason that the Germans forgot to be paperwork fanatics about this flag, then one might reasonably expect that at least a pre-June 1945 AG USFET Form No.33 "Captured Enemy Equipment Certificate" authorizing a GI the possession and/or mailing home of same would exist - never seen one of these either with "Balken or German Cross flag" listed, only "Swastika flag", per the specific US Customs declaration provisions of Sec VI, War Dept Cir 155, last revised 28 May 1945! The argument that I got it from the vet so it must be real remains abit thin, but then for some hope alsways springs eternal, no matter what! QED OldFlagsWanted.com

To say NO Nazi documented evidence(paper work or anything else)exists is a weak argument against these flags being real. ALOT of period documentation was destroyed via air raids, self destruction by the Nazis themselves,etc. To say nothing has come to light means nothing. If these flags came out during the final stages of WW2, paper items depicting such flags would NOT be a gimme. Things were getting chaotic and materials, including paper were getting scarce. Look at all the pressed paper items which came into existance toward the end of the war. Paper was needed elsewhere. Whose also to say these flags weren't ordered behind Hitler's back (like the MP43 Sturmgewehr) by officers who wanted to distance themselves from the party?They aren't gonna produce a paper trail. That would be suicidal. With the war coming to a catastrophic end for the thousand year Reich, paperwork was the furthest thing from alot of people's minds. Self survival was paramount. And to say NO museums have these displayed is a very bold statement. Have you visited ALL the museums in the world? I think not.

**Gregory Koepp** · 07-11-2004, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by Perry Floyd

So you know for sure there's not one in any museum in the world?

That's allmost as bad saying it's not real because there's not a picture of one in War Booty. This is what I meant by educated, something I've noticed you have struggled with since your coming here.

Well "perry" here you go again, you want to become the jerk first again??
get off your ivory pedestal and get your head out of you a__ and talk about the item in question.
if you can't deal with people responding to your post then don't post it.

on the War Booty book comment i made, you can see i contacted the author and posted what he knew about these flags as well as others have done. so if you want to say it was a stupid comment well thats your opinion. i was responding as most don't do.

why is it that you like to go off subject with me all the time? you know if you have an issue with me please pm me and we can discuss it or what ever you want to do.

also if you can't answer my question, without asking a question then don't respond at all, especially if your going to become a jerk again.

oh if you want you can tell on me again.. but don't delete any posts until he see's all that has been said!!
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as to your question back to me, well i have never seen one in ANY flag book nor museum. i pass to you to show me one because you are the one saying these are real WWII German issuse flag's. if one is ever found in one it would be nice to see why they are showing it, maybe they have some proof it is as you want it to be?? as stated before if you beleave it's real then more to you. but it is weard that when you say something it MUST be taken serious and not to be questioned in a way you don't like??? why are you and some of your friends like this?

i joined and got into a fun and exciting forum, and made some mistakes as everyone has and said things i have apologized for. i am wishing i have never posted some items due to some responces from some members, and it was over Vet items i recived right from the family. but i have moved on and will beleave what i want. as you will do on this so called issued flag.

greg

**Perry Floyd** · 07-11-2004, 08:09 PM

"i am wishing i have never posted some items due to some responces from some members, and it was over Vet items i recived right from the family."

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'll be a jerk anyday to this stupidity.

**Gregory Koepp** · 07-11-2004, 08:17 PM

ya thats right i had items just as everyone has that came from a vet and was said not to be of time just as this flag in question.
keep going jerk.... your the moderator someone who is to be more of a helper than a jack ass!!

please note i'm not that hard to find or talk to.

greg

**oldflagswanted** · 07-11-2004, 09:53 PM

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**bodes** · 07-12-2004, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by oldflagswanted

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Actually tons of Third Reich paperwork still exists, a good outline of same can be found in "Captured And Related Records - A [US] National Archives Conference", 1974 Ohio Press ISBN 8214-0172-6 1974. Likewise the Hoover Inst. at Stanford has the Berlin captured NSDAP-Haupt Archive, which contains much of the official Nazi era flag material - some of which I now have the originals of after they were micofilmed and the originals disposed to the public. The Russians dumped out the various Nazi Ministry files and then took the empty metal file cabinets back to Russia, the US collected up the paper and sent it to the USA, this being exactly how Goebbel's Diaries survived the Fall of Berlin! I've spent many many hours looking over these records, none of which that I've found show any reference to the subject German Cross ID banner, but I have found that the German records per dates on same where actively being maintained as late as April 1945! It seems that Nazi bureaucrats where quite bureaucratic even to the end!
OldFlagsWanted.com

Even though there exists plenty of Third Reich paper work, doesn't mean tons of it wasn't destroyed. Allied bombing took its toll on alot of Germany from about 1943 til the end of the war. Firestorms decimated alot of the cities....Paper burns real easy and is subject to easy destruction..
Also like I said, how do we know these flags weren't ordered without Hitler's(or other high ranking members of the OKW) knowledge? It's generally known that alot of disgruntled German were turning against Hitler and were looking for quick ways to end the war. And reality tells me, alot of people were looking to save their hides in case war crimes were called... An easy explanation for the Balkan cross flag being made...Paper work is always nice...Provenance to some is important...pictorial documentation would be nice but not necessary...I think the final verdict is...if you have such flag and are happy with it, NO problem...If you don't believe in them and don't like them, save your money for something else....At the end of the day, you're the one that has to be happy....

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