Announcement

**james m** · 10-21-2014, 06:19 PM

I'm finished posting pictures for now.
Jim

**pitts duncan** · 10-21-2014, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by james m View Post

I'm finished posting pictures for now.
Jim

makes me glad to live in usa where we can own such goodies. so sad it was butchered, guess they had to replate and reingrave where it was cut? but looks perfect now glad someone had deep enough pockets to restore.

**pitfighter** · 10-22-2014, 01:12 AM

Wow - lucky it was his shop it was brought into - that looks like fine work so far.
Very nice, thank you for sharing the pic - I do not know enough to comment on it's authenticity - but, it looks great!
It is a curious choice of firearm to use as a presentation piece though, but perhaps there was a reason, lost to history -

**Promo** · 10-22-2014, 09:02 AM

The inscription would translate as
"In honor of the outstanding performance of our captain Hans Langsdorf
The crew of Admiral Graf Spee
15th of December 1939"

Very nice pistol! Is it only repaired, or now back fully functionable?

**james m** · 10-22-2014, 09:21 AM

While the new owner hasn't attempted to fire it; based upon what I could see ,it's in opeable condition. The upper receiver which would take the brunt of the pressure had not been tampered with at all.
BTW: At the point these pictures were taken the frame had just been TIG welded back together and it had not been replated. That's why the surface looks so diferent between the upper and lowers.
Additionally; If you look at the picture below in clearly shows the contrast in finish as well as where the repair took place. This can be observed by looking about 1" to the left of the selector lever and directly above the trigger.
Jim

**John R.** · 10-22-2014, 09:55 AM

Very interesting weapon. I will let others more informed discuss the weapon itself, which looks period to me, and the engraving probably dates back at least 40 years also.

However, lets discuss the inscription itself. I have extensively researched this warship, traveled to Argentina, talked to surviving sailors, etc.

There is no mention by anybody, anyplace, of a presentation weapon being given to Captain Langsdorff.

Note, his last name is spelled with two "ff's" and while there is something to the right of the first "f" on this pistol, not sure right now what it is.

The weapon itself was used in the Kriegsmarine as an infantry assault pistol by a landing party. All KM sailors would have had training in this weapon, and many other weapons, during their basic training so the existence of a KM machine pistol, while rare perhaps, is not unusual.

It is odd that if a presentation weapon was going to be made, it would be this one however instead of an officer style mauser or walther.

Now, the timeline. The Graf Spee fought its first and last battle on 13 Dec 1939, having sailed from its German homeport on 21 August 1939. Since such a weapon could not have been commandered from the small arms locker by anybody, you would have to assume it had been acquired somehow prior to 21 August 1939 and smuggled aboard by a crewmember.

Nothing on the ship itself belonged to any private person, not even the Captain. All small arms and other weapons would have custody cards and were signed for, probably by a gunnery officer. No weapon would ever just disappear or an official investigation would be convened by the Captain and punishment metted out when the circumstances of the missing weapon was determined.

So no way this came from the ship itself.

The battle was during the day and early evening of 13 Dec 1939. When Captain Langsdorff was informed there was only enough refined fuel left to sail for a day or so due to damage to the lube oil strainers/purifiers, he entered Montevideo, Uruguay very shortly after midnight on the 14th. He was told by that government to leave port under the terms of interntional conventions and he ordered the destruction of important machinery, especially optics and rangefinders on the 17th. The ship sailed from Montevideo on the 17th and was scuttled, only a small crew of around 40 men aboard. The rest of the crew had been secretly transferred to a nearby German merchant ship.

Langsdorff and the crew arrived in Buenos Aires on the 18th.

During the time in Montevideo, Langsdorff was very busy with the diplomats and burying his dead. The crew would have been equally busy preparing the ship for another battle since they were not aware that the ship was going to be scuttled at that point.

In Buenos Aires, Captain Langsdorff wrote several letters on the night of the 19th and then shot himself with an Embassy provided Mauser early on the morning of 20 December. He did not kill himself on the 19th as what is usually reported.

He was discovered by an officer on the 20th and the Argentinian police took over the death scene and removed most of the effects in the room, a small Argentinian officers quarters at the port.

These articles either were eventually returned to the acting Captain, Captain Kay, who kept them for the Langsdorff widow, or they went from police custody to private hands over the next few years following the end of the war. Mrs. Langsdorff came to Argentina in the 1950's and was given those articles in German hands in an ornately engraved chest by the crew in an official ceremony in Buenos Aires. The Mauser was not among these articles, but the personal effects of Captain Langsdorff were.

There was no presentation assault pistol in the chest. A number of these personal effects were given to various sailors by Mrs. Langsdorff after the ceremony in recognition of their loyalty to Captain Langsdorff in the years subsequent to his death. No pistol was among these gifts.

To believe the story, you would have to believe that sometime after the battle on the 13th of December, the crew produced a landing force automatic assault pistol, previously engraved sometime, to a wounded Captain completely overwhelmed in diplomatic negotiation and intense discussion with the German High Command in Germany plus the German Ambassador in Argentina.

Plus the Captain was grieving for his dead sailors and trying to decide if he wanted to see the rest of the crew killed at some point trying futilely to return to Germany in a badly damaged warship.

So we are confronted with a presentation weapon dated 15 December 1939, the date Captain Langsdorff buried 38 sailors in the Montevideo Cemetery.

Well, food for thought. I am not saying anything beyond the above nor do I have any idea why this weapon exists. However it does, and I personally thank the OP for the images and look forward to discussion on this interesting piece.

John

**pors12** · 10-22-2014, 10:29 AM

Hi,

In German normaly we have "DER ADMIRAL GRAF SPEE" not "DES ADMIRAL GRAF SPEE".

As far as I know.

regards

Otto

**james m** · 10-22-2014, 11:50 AM

I purposfully posted this pistol knowing it would generate some interesting comments.
Since there is no way to currently trace the ownership(provenance) the circumstances upon which this was made and by whom will probably forever remain a mystery.
And thanks John for the recap of events surrounding the Graf Spee.

However I'd like all of you to consider the following:
What would be the purpose or gain in making up a fake presentation,engraved and silver plated pistol to then cut it up and sell it for a very modest amount?
I am not making any claims personally but I fail to see an advantage for the previous nor the current owner. We've all seen some big scams in this hobby - the TK ring and SS broach areas immediately come to mind but there was financial incentive to attemp this fakery.
However; Since this is a restricted weapon even the ability to re-sell it is very limited so I fail to see any financial advantage here.
There are some points of the engraving that personally bother me and I'm hoping someone can address that specific area.
Jim

**herd118** · 10-22-2014, 11:57 AM

John Robinson is entirely correct, the engraving is quite the post war enhancement, the engraved ship and swastika are way over the top for a presentation. It has decoration more on the line of some of the commemorative firearms such as put out by Mitchell's Mausers or the American Historical Foundation.

**Haubentaucher** · 10-22-2014, 11:58 AM

I am very sorry, but the type of engraving (english, the german would select other engravings), the writing and the motives (the big swastika, that ever sells, but "not in the Kriegsmarine"), looks to me as one attempt to rise the price. I personaly know some good gunsmiths who do or have done such a work, even better quality, only to earn more money. Such gifts were regularly made with "new guns" and not with used ones, which at that point were not manufactured any more. I would be carefull in buying such a pistol. The only way is if you can demonstrate with facts (pictures, letters, living familiars), how this pistol came from Langsdorf to your hands.
Best regards,
Haubi

**Jeff V** · 10-22-2014, 02:22 PM

I agree with John and the others that this is for sure a post war embellishment. I suspect in the 50's or early 60's. Don't fool yourselves, the Graf Spee and Capt. Langsdorf have always been very popular and engaging stories. As a small child I had already heard of this battle and the Captain. As such, even back then a nice incentive to make this pistol more than it originally was. Of course, even now, the nonsense was thrown out about it being the pistol the Captain killed himself with. The idea this piece has original engraving to the war takes a leap of faith the size of the grand canyon.
I will say that whoever did the restoration job to the demill should be very proud of the quality of their work! Most impressive!

**11C** · 10-22-2014, 03:11 PM

This sounds like a Craig Gottlieb story.

**james m** · 10-22-2014, 04:16 PM

I have no personal interest in this pistol financial or otherwise. I told the current owner about my own reservations particularly in regards to the engraving and that I would try to get some concrete answers for him. I appreciate everyones efforts and I'm hoping for some additional replies.
As an aside: I believe that the current owners willingness to provide clear pictures of this pistol is good evidence he has no intentions to deceive anyone. Therefore I will ignore the last remark.
Jim

**John R.** · 10-22-2014, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by james m View Post

I have no personal interest in this pistol financial or otherwise. I told the current owner about my own reservations particularly in regards to the engraving and that I would try to get some concrete answers for him. I appreciate everyones efforts and I'm hoping for some additional replies.
As an aside: I believe that the current owners willingness to provide clear pictures of this pistol is good evidence he has no intentions to deceive anyone. Therefore I will ignore the last remark.
Jim

I agree with you Jim. Hopefully the thread will stay on track.

John

Announcement

A Schnellfeuer Presentation Pistol

A Schnellfeuer Presentation Pistol

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread