On the receiving end, a discussion about gunshot wounds.

[IMBLITZVT]

I have been thinking about it a bit more and I think for the most part you are completely correct. It really is just the damage that the bullet does that takes the person out, not the impact of the bullet. A good point here is deer hunting. Deer almost never see the shooter and so do not jump "back" in response to the shot. Now also you are shooting the deer in the lungs area were the bullets often pass straight through the body. However often in deer hunting the shots are from the side and they never knock the deer over. At best the deer just drops. This video is a lot easier to see on You tube plus its easier to watch then people being shot! However a deer is a fairly large animal compared to a human. Have you ever seen the 50BMG on a Prairie dog?

Now I guess it may start to play slightly into stopping someone if you hit the in the arm or something like that. The mass of the arm being somewhat small, may result in the body being turned from the impact.

The other interesting thing is that if the bullet hits you in the head and takes a chunk when it leaves, the head may actually move towards the shot. I think this explains the JFK head movement when he was killed. The shot was from behind but the head blows back. Eqaul reactions... so if the bullet leaves with a chunk, the body will move toward the shooter. I do think this shows that momentum does start to play some role if its not a body shot. If you watch the footage in slow motion, you can see the JFK's head move forward with the impact and then gets thrown back with the bullet exiting with mass. However the movement forward is fairly minor. You can really see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-cri...eature=related

Really shows you just how horrible it was... A very sad end for someone who stood down Kruschev.

[Jean-Loup]

It is undeniable that a bullet will transfer some momentum to its target, and thus be able to participate in "jerking" the target. But that small amount of momentum on its own is not sufficient to make a person fall. For example, if you come behind someone and give him a violent push forward by surprise (much stronger then what a bullet could do), most people will not fall, but will simply take a step forward to regain balance.

So it is normal that Kennedy's head is jerked forward slightly when the bullet hits him. (as you say yourself about Kennedy: "However the movement forward is fairly minor")

Kennedy is not a good example for a discution like this though for several reasons:
-many believe in conspiracy stories about his death, so will not agree on the directions the bullets came from.
-wounds to the brain can cause a person to have unexpected muscle movements. This makes any interpretation of momentum transfer difficult.


It is possible for containers filled with liquid to move towards the shooter when they are shot, as you say. This is a very interesting topic, that I would like to discuss, but I would need to make illustrations to go with it.

However, the brain is not liquid, and I do not think this effect would apply for headshots on humans. As you say yourself for Kennedy, his head first moves forward, then backwards. So the momentum pushed the head forwards, not backwards.

[IMBLITZVT]

Very good points again! I agree totally.

I agree, lets take a look at non brain shots and see what causes movement towards the shot!

Very interesting!

[MikeP]

I'm not surprised you question the validity of my returning to action inside a month.

You got to get out of the schoolhouse someday.

You need to appreciate the abilities of young, tough, strong, motivated and determined individuals.

I was 22 at the time on my 2nd tour.

I grew up on a farm, used to intense manual labour, played football on a winning team for four years, earned a brown belt in Tang Soo Do, and was distinguished honor graduate of my airborne class.
I had a number of broken bones and lacerations as a kid.

Kind of an average SF tooper of the time.

You can lay about, whimper, and die, or you can get upon your feet and survive.

It took me a few minutes realize I might survive and took steps to insure that.

You don't find many SF guys with a "poor me" atiude or riding the PTSD bus.

If you are successful in your medical pursuit, you may meet similar people.

My team medic at the time is on another board and has verified my story.
He has had a subsequent career as a Physician's assistant.

[Jean-Loup]

Hi Mike, please read my post again, I absolutely did not cast any doubt on your story:

"The fact that you were wounded multiple times, but were back on foot a month later is also interesting; and would seem unexpected to some since you were shot in the chest with a "high powered assault rifle round". "

When I said it may seem 'unexpected to some', I was not implying you were a liar or something. It meant just what it meant: it may seem unexpected, but in fact is perfectly possible and is not surprising if you are used to gunshot wounds.

Please see my post number 7, where the patient was similar to you: he was shot with 3 bullets from assault rifles, 2 in the leg, once in the chest and left the hospital a few hours later. The main difference is that his lung was not hit, making the wound much less severe then yours was.

So, "peace brother"!

JL

PS: IMBLITZVT, I am not going to be at home for several weeks now, and dont have a scanner. Next time I will be at home I will make a post about the liquid filled containers that can move towards the shooter.

[Lasse L]

Very interesting thread if I may say so!

I have a few questions,
Based on the body-type of a person, say for example in comparission a skinny guy (65 kg low muscle and low fat?) a well built guy with a lot of muscles (say 95 kg, low body fat rate) and a overweight guy (130+ kg high body fat rate) how does this change the damage done by a bullet? In other words, does muscle slow a bullet down more than fat or is it pretty much the same?

Also, if a bullet hits a bone, can it change its projectory and continue in another direction pretty much intact, or will it almost always split up into pieces?

[Jean-Loup]

Hi Lasse

Everything is a question of probabilities, and of course a muscular or obese person will have more chances that a bullet will go through his body without hitting any vital structures, or be slowed down or deflected in just a way that will avoid more severe damage.
However, the most resistant structure in the body (after bone, teeth, etc of course) is skin. The bullet is mostly slowed down by going through skin. Muscle and especialy fat have much less resistance.
You can verify this easily by trying to cut a piece of leather, versus a piece of meat.
A fat person will have a larger body surface, so more chances of being hit, but then less chances of the wound being severe, as a large percentage of his body is made of fat. Getting shot through fat of course it not as severer as getting shot through a vital organ.

What happens when a bullet hits bone will depend on the type of bullet and the speed it is going at. The slower the bullet is traveling, the greater the chances it will be deflected and stay intact. The faster the bullet is going, the greater the chance that it will penetrate or fragment the bone; with the bullet maybe disintegrating in the process.

As a rule of thumb I would say a pistole bullet has more chances of being deflected and staying intact because of its shape, construction and slow speed. Lead core rifle bullets have a greater chance of disintegrating and damaging bone.

JL

[Jean-Loup]

"The shot was from behind but the head blows back. Eqaul reactions... so if the bullet leaves with a chunk, the body will move toward the shooter. "

As far as I undertsand, items filled with fluid can sometimes displace TOWARDS the shooter for the following reasons.

I saw a video example of a this effect online using a can of paint, so let us use a can of paint as an example. When the bullet goes through, it almost simultaneaously creates a small entrance hole, a larger exit hole, and a temporary cavity in the paint.
Since paint is incompressible, that temporary cavity will cause an overpressureto be created within the can, causing the paint to be projected out of both the entrance and the exit hole. This fluid being projected out will cause a rocket effect in both the direction of the exit hole and of the entrance hole.
Because the exit hole is larger, more fluid will escape through te exit hole, causing a greater rocket effect, causing the can of paint to displace TOWARDS the shooter; which initialy would seem incomprehensible.

However, brain matter is not fluid like pint, and the skull usualy fractures, unlike the can of paint; so I dont think this effect can occure when a person (J.F. Kennedy) gets shot.

This effect is mentioned in the "Back and to the Left" paragrap is this link about the JFK shooting, though it is poorly explained and mixed in with false info: http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/JFK_Assassination

This second link describes the "jet effect" much better, and also says that it is very rare for it to occure with a container filled of fluid; and that it probably never happend with human or animal targets: http://www.kenrahn.com/jfk/issues_an...et_effect.html

[Jean-Loup]

I was reading an article about the Giffords shooting in Arizona today, that had some quite interesting information about gunshot wounds to the head:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110110/...n_brain_injury

That's the mystery of brain injury: There's no way to predict just how much disability a wound that traverses multiple regions will leave, because our neural connections are so individual.<O</O
<O</O
"The same injury in me and you could have different effects," said Dr. Bizhan Aarabi, chief of neurotrauma at the University of Maryland's Shock Trauma Center, who has long studied penetrating brain injuries.<O</O
<O</O
"The belief is if you get shot in the head, you're dead, but it isn't like that," agreed the University of Miami's Dr. Ross Bullock, chief of neurotrauma at Jackson Memorial Hospital. He cared for a man shot in the head with an AK-47 who two years later is back to work full-time and "a normal person."<O</O
<O</O
"Every patient is an individual and more so with a gunshot than anything else," he said.<O</O
<O</O
There are few statistics, but doctors agree that well over 90 percent of gunshot wounds to the head are fatal. Aarabi cited his own study of 600 Maryland cases that found 95 percent were dead before arriving at the hospital.<O</O

[Fritz]

This footage is actually well known, it is, as the entire thread, somewhat graphic, but adds to the thread as it shows how (rifle) bullets react once they enter a body and of course how the body reacts once it gets hit by rifle bullets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvOz...eature=related

The video, I think, originated from a german camera team during the earlier stages of the latest iraq conflict, if my memory serves me right the bullets were fired by royal marines.


I think the link is appropriate in context with this thread, if not, please delete.

Ignore the sound, I didn't search for a "better" version.

[MikeP]

I have a friend who was shot multiple times, including his head.
His story was featured in VN magazine a while back reference the attack on A-344 Bunard.

He lost a significant portion of his brain but went on to have a successful life in spite of some residual effects.

He has 100% mental function and is quite prolific literally.

I only learned a few years ago that he had survived.
Last report was that he was thrown on the chopper with his brains hanging out.

I have spoken with some old surgeons who did work in military hospitals.
They marvel about things they saw and learned handling so many and so varied serious injuries.

[rexmundi]

Very informative topic!

[jiipee76]

Not about gunshot wounds,but:

My grandfather wounded in war and carried 6 mortar shrapnels inside his head and about 20 more on his back.Biggest shrapnel inside head was 25mm x 10mm.Back in 1940´s those were not even removed.Shrapnels inside head gave him some headache +40years after war but nothing more.He lived long life.

[Jean-Loup]

Here are a couple of interesting extracts from Dr Vincent DiMaio's well knwon book "Gunshot wounds", regarding hollowpoint pistol bullets.