On the receiving end, a discussion about gunshot wounds.

[Tobysauer]

Hi Jean-Loup, Fantastic reading ! I have one question that you may be able to help me with: In section six of your article on bullet extraction,where it mentions about leaving a bullet in the body if it is not causing any joint restriction or problems , Is there not a risk of lead poisoning from the remaining bullet ? Hope you can help as this has puzzled me for years ! Regards Tobysauer.

[Steve Sherlock]

Hi Jean-Loup,
Thanks for posting this most interesting thread. In case you are not familiar with it, the US government complied a study on this very subject, entitled "Wound Ballistics." (Office of the Surgeon General, Department of the Army, Washington, D.C., 1962) It's a hard-bound book of 883 pages. Though it does focus on WWII, it also covers the Korean War when discussing the protective properties of body armor. It's a "must read" if you haven't already encountered it.

Steve

[jiipee76]

Hi Jean-Loup,
Thanks for posting this most interesting thread. In case you are not familiar with it, the US government complied a study on this very subject, entitled "Wound Ballistics." (Office of the Surgeon General, Department of the Army, Washington, D.C., 1962) It's a hard-bound book of 883 pages. Though it does focus on WWII, it also covers the Korean War when discussing the protective properties of body armor. It's a "must read" if you haven't already encountered it.

Steve

This document is available here:
http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksd...cs/default.htm

[moonstomp]

Hi Jean-Loup, Fantastic reading ! I have one question that you may be able to help me with: In section six of your article on bullet extraction,where it mentions about leaving a bullet in the body if it is not causing any joint restriction or problems , Is there not a risk of lead poisoning from the remaining bullet ? Hope you can help as this has puzzled me for years ! Regards Tobysauer.

Toby.
There is a minimal chance that lead poisoning can be caused by a gun shot wound. However there is the chance that the lead could be absorbed into the blood stream however it is a small amount of lead but if it leads to a rising level in lead in the blood, doctors will use a combination of surgical debridement and chelation therapy with oral succimer. Which the chelation binds the lead so it can be excreted.

[copdoc]

Toby.
There is a minimal chance that lead poisoning can be caused by a gun shot wound. However there is the chance that the lead could be absorbed into the blood stream however it is a small amount of lead but if it leads to a rising level in lead in the blood, doctors will use a combination of surgical debridement and chelation therapy with oral succimer. Which the chelation binds the lead so it can be excreted.

Scar tissue usually isoloates the projectile but lead toxicitry has been reported, usually projectiles in the synovium. (Joint space) I have not had seen a case with lead level high enough to require chelation. Have you seen a case? I would be interested. Not all docs do it but it is not a bad idea to periodically moniter lead levels in patients that have retained bullets. (just in case any of you do) some docs only check a lead level if you have symtoms. I am not aware of any literature that has specifics for monitering as they are rare cases and almost always written up. Google lead toxicity and synovium or synovial fluid. I was surprised how many more papers there were although last time I did it we did not have google and had to do a medline search.

[Steve Sherlock]

This document is available here:
http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksd...cs/default.htm

That's the book ok, but unfortunately this online version doesn't have the numerous photos which are in my hard-bound copy.

I did notice that it was reprinted in 1984, so a bound copy probably wouldn't be too hard to find online somewhere.

Steve

[Jean-Loup]

Hi guys
Thanks all for your replies, I was starting to wonder if anybody was reading this thread.

Steve, that book "Wound ballistics" that you mention is one of my favourite sources of information, particularly because it concerns WW2 era. I have only seen the online version, and all the photos are there. Just scroll down to th bottom of the page and you will see them. I have already used some illustrations from that book in threads on this forum.

Toby, the others answered your question about lead poisoning better then I could.

Copdoc, it sounds like you are very well qualified to talk about this topic, as you have been on the user end, the analyser end, and the fixer end of the spectrum (cop, doc and firearm examiner).

"Certainly stuff to think about. Only mistake I could find right away was the fact that a standard AK-47 fires a 7.62x39 bullet, not a 7.65x39."

Indeed Uncle Goose, and there are probably many other mistakes in this thread. However, concerning the exact weapon caliber, I am most interested in the principles of wounding, then in knowing each and every caliber number. In fact, I have often wondered how precise the official calibers really are?? I mean, can they actualy make something with 1/100th milimeter precision for mass produced military weapons like the AK?

Jean-Loup

[copdoc]

Hi guys
Thanks all for your replies, I was starting to wonder if anybody was reading


Copdoc, it sounds like you are very well qualified to talk about this topic, as you have been on the user end, the analyser end, and the fixer end of the spectrum (cop, doc and firearm examiner).


Jean-Loup

Hello Jean Loup

I have had the dirty end of the stick most of my life.

It was a lot of reading. I come here to look at pics of brooms and Lugers.

There are a lot of miscomcetions even in the literature. The last paper on GSW I submitted was years ago. One of the editors said they did not publish it because several of the well know academic surgeons wanted to save publications in J. xxxxxx for themselves. I was pretty frustrated that the medical literature was political and have not submitted anything since then. One of the coauthors was president of the ACEP and said we should submit it to J For Sci or one of the ER journals as one editor recommended. I just put it on the shelf.

[Uncle Goose]

Hi guys


Indeed Uncle Goose, and there are probably many other mistakes in this thread. However, concerning the exact weapon caliber, I am most interested in the principles of wounding, then in knowing each and every caliber number. In fact, I have often wondered how precise the official calibers really are?? I mean, can they actualy make something with 1/100th milimeter precision for mass produced military weapons like the AK?

There is variation in the barrels of guns and the bullets themselves. For instance if you take a generic Mosin Nagant rifle you can get a good shot with one type of bullet while a another type might give you awful results. While it might be quite precise when produced new, barrels will wear out and result in less accurate shooting. Tolerances have to be somewhat strict in weapons to improve accuracy. I know that some people shoot .32 bullets in a Nagant M1895 Revolver which is essentially a .31. In some cases the bullet get stuck inside the barrel because it's so tight.

[Jean-Loup]

Here is an interesting WWII advertising for the Thompson submachine gun and the .30 cal carbine produced by Chrysler.
Some of the legend of the 'stopping power' of the .45 round probably comes from this type of advertisings, where it says "every soldier hit with a .45 actualy does fall down".
You will note that the advertising is also talking about the 'powerfull carbine', when the carbine is actualy legendary amongst WWII veterans for its lack of power.
Anyways, this type of advertising, just like any advertising, obviously isnt what you want to read if you are looking for acurate information.

JL

[MikeP]

I've had an AK bullet in my right lung since 1969.

It went thru two web straps and a heavy shirt which slowed it enough to stop before continuing through my heart.

I was already hit in both legs and looking for a better position from which to direct fire.

Immediate result was deflated lung, lots of severe pain and enough pressure on the good one I could only gasp for breath.
I was pretty sure I was going to suffocate.
I was the only American on the ground and had to coordinate withdrawal and extraction for myself and several CIDG.

Touch and go for a while, but I was running operations a month later.

Never give up-never quit-gets you through for another day.
Good training.
The VA rates me 20% for "lung condition."
More for other stuff.

[IMBLITZVT]

Very very interesting thread! I think you are getting few comments because it takes so long to read it and think about it. Great Job!

Here is something I have been wondering about but have not taken the time to really think about:

How does the transfer of energy affect the "stopping power" or whatever you want to call it. Does this play into the 9mm vs 45 ACP.

The 9mm being .354" diameter (.0984 inches^2) and the 45ACP being .452" diameter(.1604inches^2).

So with two times larger surface area would make me think that the 45ACP transfers its energy to the target much quicker than the 9mm. This having a "shock Load" effect on the target and might explain the difference in the so call performance/knock down power??? However lets face it, the most important part about a bullet is not the energy or wound, its how quickly it takes someone out of action.

Its much easier to look at Energy and wounds and compare. However how does momentum play in? You hit on this a bit but its the area I am most interested in. I have been thinking about these things for a while but I have not taken the time to sit down and look at them and see what factor they play!

I tend to find that real experience tends to be correct even if those that say it can not explain it. You have never heard about a 45 failing to stop someone. You have heard this about 9mm. It could all be in peoples heads but I would be willing to bet there is something behind this. Of course Movies screw with this as it blurs the real experiences. Plus having shot a lot of 45ACP and 9mm, the recoil is much more with 45ACP.

[Jean-Loup]

Thanks for sharing your experience of being "on the receiving end" with us Mike. I suspect you know it was AK round from seeing it on X-rays later on, or maybe from seeing the shooter? The fact that you were wounded multiple times, but were back on foot a month later is also interesting; and would seem unexpected to some since you were shot in the chest with a "high powered assault rifle round".


**"However how does momentum play in? You hit on this a bit but its the area I am most interested in. "

IMBLITZ. Take a look at post number 4 and 5. The point is that no bullet (except maybe 50 Cal rifle) actualy has "knocking down power" or "shock load effect" or momentum, to knock a person down. The reaons people fall (if they do fall, which is not always the case) is more linked to the exact wound that was sustained, and psychological reasons. The momentum the bullet transfers to the person it hits can not be any greater then the momentum (basicaly the recoil) transfered to the shooter. In other words enaugh to give a violent little push, but not enaugh to blow someone off his feet.

The 45, with its larger surface, has a slightly greater chance of damaging a vital structure then the 9mm does. However, the difference is not so big.

You mention "real experience". Who, in real life, has had the chance to shoot such a large number of people with both the 9mm, and .45 that he can make a valid comparison? You would have to shoot dozens of people in the same anatomical location, with the same angle, and from the same distance, to make any valid conclusions. I doubt anybody has ever had the chance to perform such a study...


**"However lets face it, the most important part about a bullet is not the energy or wound, its how quickly it takes someone out of action."

How fast someone will be taken out of action is directly related to the wound that is inflicted. Wound to the brain=out of action very fast. Wound to the biceps mucle=probably will not become out of action if he has any motivation.


**"You have never heard about a 45 failing to stop someone. "

I am quite confident that if this question is looked into, you can find many cases where .45's also failed to stop someone.

JL

[IMBLITZVT]

You certainly bring up good points. I don't doubt that its usually not enough energy to knock someone down. However I do see one thing in your calculations that I would have to say does not really show things correctly. You say the mass of the human is 70kg... but you are not hitting the complete body with the shot. Because the body has so many places it hinges, when the bullet first hits and starts to move the body , its only acting on a part of that 70kg.

A baseball is about 145g going at up to 40m/s which is 25% more momentum but 1/4th the Energy compared to a 45 ACP. Now I have been hit and seen a baseball hit people. If you get hit with a 40m/s baseball, its not going to take you off your feet but its got considerable stopping power.

I agree its not going to blow you back 20 feet, no doubt that the movies. Let me think more on the rest... like I said I have just started thinking about it.

[Jean-Loup]

"A baseball is about 145g going at up to 40m/s which is 25% more momentum but 1/4th the Energy compared to a 45 ACP. Now I have been hit and seen a baseball hit people. If you get hit with a 40m/s baseball, its not going to take you off your feet but its got considerable stopping power."

I know what you mean. Just like being slapped in the face can have a very powerfull effect if you are not expecting it, and maybe also make you fall off your feet. But in all these cases, it is more the surprise and pain that would make you fall then actual momentum transfer.

Here is an exelent case of what looks like huge "knock down power" when an undercover cop is shot at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGL17LBJyEQ
However it turns out that the cop was not even hit by the bullet, and what looked like "knock down power" is the cop's reflexes. What I called "psychological reasons" before. If this policeman had actualy been hit, he would probably have moved just as violently, and the shooter could have braged about how the cop was "blown off his feet". It would have been "real undeniable street experience that some scientist in a lab couldnt understand". In fact, the policeman instinctively 'blew' himself off his feet.

About your human body remarque, it is a good point, but simply look at real footage of people getting shot, (like the drug sting case I posted). There really is no visible backwards movement of the body. People can very well fall in the same direction that the shot came from. The getting blown backwards effect looks good in movies, but isnt reality.
Also keep in mind that actualy, it is not 100% of the bullets energy that is transfered in the form of momentum. Some energy is used for tissue destruction, bullet deformation, etc. So the momentum tranfered to the target is only a fraction of the momentum/recoil felt by the shooter.