Martin, I don't know if that is research (actual documentation from period sources) or extrapolation of serial number evidence. We know the police proofed "commercial" E-E LPs had a final date of 1942. These guns came after, so we assume they are 1943 or later.
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Hi Joe,
here is something new for your ERMA-ERFURT Database. It is very similar to the one you own, only E/E, Serial Number (this one is quie low) on frame and above main bolt, and normal Eagle proof stamp. No military proof stamp whatsoever. But a Z was never used or sold to civil authorities ;-) Hope you like it, not cleaned yet though.
Regards,
Martin
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Even though it is a low serial number, the Erma Erfurt Z Kampfpistole is very late 1942 or more likely 1943 production.
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Hello Signalman,Originally posted by SIGNALMAN View Post
you wrote before about production dates of aluminium and zinc flare guns. Latest 1943, with a few questionable items later on........therefore is it right that in 1944 and 1945 the germans produced NO Walther flare guns anymore, only the LP42? Do you know when production date of LP42´s started? And when did Walther steel Flare gun production end?
Thanks, MartinComment
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Hello, I know of no Walther Heer models with 1944 or 1945 dates ( except a few guns in photo's which appear to be earlier pistols with dates added after their initial production and appeared after the wall fell in Germany ).
The Undated Walther Heer Commercial serial range - with an "L" suffix were produced into the 59,xxxL range. The last 20,000 or so were virtually all zink production. They were produced to at least late 1943. Possibly as late as early 1944. I doubt seriously if any were from1945.
The latest dated steel heers I know of are ac/43 (1943), The latest commercial range steels I have record of is 33,xxx. Probably early 1943.
There are no serial - date records I know of, only observation.Comment
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The Walther Stainless sld models were produced into early 1944 so the Walther plant was still producing a few flareguns in early 1944Comment
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[QUOTE=SIGNALMAN;4099432]
The Undated Walther Heer Commercial serial range - with an "L" suffix were produced into the 59,xxxL range. The last 20,000 or so were virtually all zink production. They were produced to at least late 1943. Possibly as late as early 1944. I doubt seriously if any were from1945.
QUOTE]
Hi, many thanks for the detailed answer. I have quite a few of these commercial - no date with Walther Banner - series, both in Alu as well as in Zinc. There are quite a few of those on the market now as there was an arsenal cleared, so I bought (and sold) some. Most of them - with suffix L - do have the military acceptance E/359 though. Some have no manufacturer at all, but are clearly Walther´s as they are suffix L and have the Walther military acceptance stamp E/359 (Walther banner missing). Will post pics if there is some interest.Comment
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What are "civil authorities"? The RFSS or Ministry of Interior? That would account for Z pistols sold to the RSHA and the Ordnungspolizei. And they certainly used them. Not WaA, but with the Eagle proof stamp. I have no police acceptance Z pistols reported. Do you Howard?Originally posted by bergler View PostComment
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Hello Joe, I do not have any police "Z" pistols. Just the Erma-Erfurts with the Short Stout eagle. I asked you a long time ago if you thought they were police eagles and you said you did not think so.
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" But a Z was never used or sold to civil authorities "
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I do have a Steel " Z " kampfpistole in the 33,xxxL commercial range. I guess there is always an exception to the rule.Comment
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Howard, the short stout eagle without N indicates what? Is it a commercial proof for non-pressure LPs? The police used Z pistols. I have source documentation that they employed them on the eastern front. But, inasmuch as the police continued to accept with P38s into 1944/45 with police E/F and E/L, then I would expect them to accept Z pistols also. I cannot say the same for the RSHA that had combat formations on the eastern front and would have used the Z Pistols. That stubby eagle would have sufficed as an acceptance for those "civil authorities".Originally posted by SIGNALMAN View PostComment
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Hello Joe, What date is your document on Police Kampfpistoles. If it is late 1941 to 1944 maybe I was right and that short stout eagle is some sort of police acceptance specifically for kampfpistoles.
Have you or anyone else seen this proof on other weapons or equipment other than the Erma-Erfurts ?Comment
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Hi, the stout Eagle without N is no police proof stamp. It is the acceptance stamp for weapons with special purpose (mabe a bad translation, but that is more or less what it is). You do find it on te Fliegerleuchtpistole L as well, on the barrel (this is my quickest thought).
A `Z`in the police would be of great interest for me as well.....mostly everything was used, but officially issued?Comment
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Hello, a steel Z with commercial numbering? Wow, can you show us pictures? That is really something. Do you have or know of other steel `Z`?Originally posted by SIGNALMAN View PostComment
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Howard, this is the documentation that I wrote about in the flare pistol article I published in AutoMag ten years or so ago. The documentation consisted of the Order Police weapons training manuals as well as photo copies of police orders found in the National Archives. Martin, the Z pistol was officially issued and used by police troopers in combat. As I write above, I believe the police issued weapons would have contained the normal E/L or E/F that late in the war.
But the special purpose proof ( Martin, what is the word auf deutsch) would have sufficed for the RSHA. Martin, is your Fliegerleuchtpistol L also marked with LW acceptance?
"Between 1941 and 1943, police units were schooled in the use of the W.Gr.Patrone , a grenade cartridge designed to be used with the Leuchtpistole (flare pistol). However, the additional of the shoulder stock affixed by claw mount behind the hammer was deemed necessary because of heavy recoil.<sup>1</sup> The introduction of the Kampf Pistole (combat pistol) also known as the Z-Pistole found favor with police units which often found themselves in defensive positions. Extracts of police correspondence from the RFSS records at the National Archives indicate the supply of the Kampfpistole to SS-Police Regiments 2, 10, 11, and 13 on the eastern front in January 1944. Supplies for each pistol included both explosive and smoke rounds, as well as one cartridge case. The twenty-six Kampfpistolen issued to each company of certain batallions in the regiments were to be used for close combat and sudden enemy break-throughs. Supplies came from the main arsenal in Berlin.<sup>1</sup><o></o><o></o><o></o><o></o>Comment
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