Walther P-38 vs. Colt .45 1911

[Suber]

Gary, I would be willing to bet that the ".10 " of an inch would make a huge difference, as I would bet that at close range a 230gr round would de-limb a person. A 115gr 9mm would not.

Two words: Kinetic Energy

You know I am not arguing with you my friend!

[Suber]

To further ponder, it is not so much the speed and mass, as it is the ability of the ROUND itself to cause CAVITATION. That is the key. The issue with a standard 9mm, or .45 ball for that matter, is that it simply puts a whole right through the person at close range. The LARGER the bullet the more cavitation is created in the surrounding tissue of the bullet path. That is why hydroshocks, Hornady taps, etc are SO lethal is the expansion, causing huge amounts of tissue cavitation.

[bigschuss]

Hi Blair,

That is exactly what is being advocated but in a slightly different way. There is absolutely no question that a .50 BMG has more kinetic energy than a .223. The problem is delivering it. A .50 BMG that punches a hole through a person clearly takes 99% of the energy out with it. But that still doesn't matter a hill of beans. Capstick over a couple of decades saw over and over how very large calibre rifles failed to knock down animals.

Visualise this, a .460 Weatherby Magnum has a reported muzzle energy of 7,504 foot pounds. That means that when you touch that rifle off the bullet will supposedly move a 7,504 pound object one foot (that's what the ft/lbs abbreviation means in physics-feel free to look it up). I don't know about you but the last time I fired a .460 WBY it didn't move me a foot, and last time I checked I don't weigh near 7000 pounds! It does however have a free recoil force of around 135 Joule, which equates out to around 100 foot pounds of energy....that is how much real kinetic energy there is and that is variable depending on the weight of the rifle firing it.

Put another way, there really is no such thing as knockdown power. Newtonian Physics tells us (in fact it is one of Newton's fundamental Laws of Physics) that "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."
To make a ball roll along the ground you have to impart energy into it. After it is rolling, gravity, drag, friction and other forces will then imemediately begin acting on it to slow it down.

Bullets are no different. You expend a certain amount of chemical energy to get them going and then they start to slow down. But the absolute maximum amount of energy that they can have at the beginning is also the amount of energy that hits you in the hand when you fire it.

Does a .45 hit harder than a 9mm?... Yeah a little bit, about 1 or 2 foot pounds depending on the pistol shooting it. The primary advantage that the .45 has is it is bigger and bigger holes have a better chance of doing vascular and bone damage. But do you really think that .10 of an inch is reeeeaally that much of a difference?

That's why Capstick, and Cooper and all of the combat shooting instructors all say that you need to hit the target in a vital area for it to make any difference.


Cheers
Gary

Hi Gary,

That's a great explanation. Thanks for taking the time. I think I followed most of it.

Here's a hypothetical experiment....I've got 2 steel silhouettes the same size firmly in the ground. And I have two ropes tied to an overhead frame. On one rope I've got a 45 pound steel ball, and on the other I have a 10 pound steel ball tied to the end. I raise both balls the exact same height, let them swing down, and the 45 pound knocks over the steel silhouette, and the 10 pound ball doesn't. This demonstrates so called "knock down power" correct? The greater mass of the 45 pound ball transfers more energy to the target and knocks it down.

Did Capstick argue that bullets don't behave like this? Is the problem that bullets pass right through the soft tissue and carry most of the energy out the other side with them? Is this the crux of the knock-down power myth? Interesting stuff.

Best,
Blair

[Perry Floyd]

[quote=gew98;3443729]Now perry I don't get your statement. I have had minty to worn out GI 1911 and A1 pistols. They did and will eat any surplus ball like candy with nary hiccup...






I agree and was what I was saying in my statement.

[Gary Cain]

As I stated before the kinetic energy is not factual. If you want to really impress yourself calculate the KE of a 16 lb bowling ball. According to the formulas that are used by the ammunition manufacturers it will quite simply vaporise you! And I know you are not arguing!





Gary

Gary, I would be willing to bet that the ".10 " of an inch would make a huge difference, as I would bet that at close range a 230gr round would de-limb a person. A 115gr 9mm would not.

Two words: Kinetic Energy

You know I am not arguing with you my friend!

[Gary Cain]

Cavitation is also a meaningless argument. There are two wound cavities created when a bullet hits a person or animal, the permanent wound cavity and the temporary wound cavity. The only one that matters is the permanent wound cavity because the temporary is just that temporary! The organs, blood vessels, and other soft tissues move out of the way and are not damaged in the overwhelming majority of cases.
Please do not believe me but if you are close to a good university I suggest you review a few volumes of the Journal of Trauma. They have been publishing the reports of bullet damage to people for about 30 years and they finally figured out that the temporary cavity is meaningless (well they did about 10 years ago now) and they found to the horror of bullet makers everywhere that with rare exception the hyper velocity bullets that were supposed to do so much damage with their temporary cavities...weren't!

The Black Talon and the Golden Sabre instead designed new profectiles that have jackets that will extend their petals half an inch into the area of the temporary cavity and those will indeed cut blood vessels and damage organs and that my friend will put someone down!

Also for the most part bullets don't remove limbs, it does happen on very rare occasion (especially in the case of pistol bullets) but to maximise your damage potential in that area I suggest a 12 gauge with high velocity #6 bird shot. That will remove an arm almost a 100% of the time if you hit it square. The 320 pellets basically erode the arm away. Very gruesome.

Cheers
Gary

To further ponder, it is not so much the speed and mass, as it is the ability of the ROUND itself to cause CAVITATION. That is the key. The issue with a standard 9mm, or .45 ball for that matter, is that it simply puts a whole right through the person at close range. The LARGER the bullet the more cavitation is created in the surrounding tissue of the bullet path. That is why hydroshocks, Hornady taps, etc are SO lethal is the expansion, causing huge amounts of tissue cavitation.

[Gary Cain]

Hi Blair,

You pretty much have it. The one variable you did not state was the mass of the steel targets and the frames holding them. If they are both 50 pounds let's assume (and yes I understand what that makes me) the velocity of the 45 pound ball will (depending on the arc of the swing, you actually have to calculate the Moment of Inertia which I havn't done for about 15 years so I don't remember how! but it is a factor of the mass of the ball andthe velocity it was able to attain which is predicated on how long the chain is because gravity can only pull it at the rate of 32 feet per second per second...in other words there is a lot of math involved, but yes the 45 pound ball should be able (based on the variables mentioned) to knock the plate over. The 10 pound ball on the other hand would not....unless it was able to swing from a much longer distance to generate the neccessary MOMENTUM, please not I did not say Kinetic Energy, it is the Momentum that you need to knock things over like that.

And the reason all of this needs to be figured out is one of Newtons other pesky Laws of Physics

Every body persists in its state of being at rest or of moving uniformly straight forward, except insofar as it is compelled to change its state by force impressed

I think it is his second Law of Motion but it could be the first I don't honestly remember!

To answer your second question about bullets passing through, origianlly Capstick thought that that was a factor but later as more bullets stayed in the critters being shot he began to figure out that the KE values that were being calculated were nonsense (BTW I lifted that good for the side of cereal boxes quote from him!).

Cheers
Gary

Hi Gary,

That's a great explanation. Thanks for taking the time. I think I followed most of it.

Here's a hypothetical experiment....I've got 2 steel silhouettes the same size firmly in the ground. And I have two ropes tied to an overhead frame. On one rope I've got a 45 pound steel ball, and on the other I have a 10 pound steel ball tied to the end. I raise both balls the exact same height, let them swing down, and the 45 pound knocks over the steel silhouette, and the 10 pound ball doesn't. This demonstrates so called "knock down power" correct? The greater mass of the 45 pound ball transfers more energy to the target and knocks it down.

Did Capstick argue that bullets don't behave like this? Is the problem that bullets pass right through the soft tissue and carry most of the energy out the other side with them? Is this the crux of the knock-down power myth? Interesting stuff.

Best,
Blair

[Suber]

Cavitation is also a meaningless argument. There are two wound cavities created when a bullet hits a person or animal, the permanent wound cavity and the temporary wound cavity. The only one that matters is the permanent wound cavity because the temporary is just that temporary! The organs, blood vessels, and other soft tissues move out of the way and are not damaged in the overwhelming majority of cases.
Please do not believe me but if you are close to a good university I suggest you review a few volumes of the Journal of Trauma. They have been publishing the reports of bullet damage to people for about 30 years and they finally figured out that the temporary cavity is meaningless (well they did about 10 years ago now) and they found to the horror of bullet makers everywhere that with rare exception the hyper velocity bullets that were supposed to do so much damage with their temporary cavities...weren't!

The Black Talon and the Golden Sabre instead designed new profectiles that have jackets that will extend their petals half an inch into the area of the temporary cavity and those will indeed cut blood vessels and damage organs and that my friend will put someone down!

Also for the most part bullets don't remove limbs, it does happen on very rare occasion (especially in the case of pistol bullets) but to maximise your damage potential in that area I suggest a 12 gauge with high velocity #6 bird shot. That will remove an arm almost a 100% of the time if you hit it square. The 320 pellets basically erode the arm away. Very gruesome.

Cheers
Gary

I completely understand you Gary, and you are well versed in Trauma. I have taken ATLS, PHTLS, and Critical Care Trauma classes for years, and your education is on the money. I also worked at the Office of the Medical Investigator for several years as a Morphology Tech, and cut many bodies while I worked there. It was always fascinating, at least to me, to see internal damage by projectiles. The ones that always amazed me were the corpses that were involved with the police. They would come into the "Office" with every round imaginable in them. 9mm, .45, 00 Buck. Tracking the bullet paths on those cases were always challenging!

[Oberst Von Luck]

Walther P38!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The P38 it's the best gun!

My cyq 1136k

[Col.Klink]

Very nice gun! I have a CYQ myself, but not that nice!

[Oberst Von Luck]

Thank's!

I like! my P38 it's found in France. country " Nord Pas de Calais "

[Douglas Jr.]

That's a very nice "cyq". Seems to be in nice condition!