Walther P-38 vs. Colt .45 1911

[Perry Floyd]

IMO there is really no debate in the stopping power close range(less than 25 yrds) .45 vs. 9mm.
Now straight out of the factory military issue 1911 vs. P38 on anything but fmj ball ammo I would side with the P38 all day long in so far as reliability.
If not you won't get through a clip in the 1911 without a jam(significant gunsmith work required to remedy), not so in a P38.

[Rylan]

Well here's a story related to me by a vet from Monte Cassino Texas 36th ID
He was running up a hill and got hit in the side with a 9mm and didnt even know it untill he slowed down.
On the other hand he shot a German with his .45 in the hand spun the German around and then knocked him down.
He told me that story right after the war and I have never forgotten it.
I my mind there is no better choice than a .45.
But on the other hand I use a .40 today.
Jimmy

I bet that if the 9mm round was placed in the exact same spot as the .45, the guy would be knocked down just the same.

[juoneen]

I read an article on the subject many years ago...and it said the .30 caliber luger round had more killing power overall.

A 45 is a supreme close in weapon, hard to beat and yes it will stop faster and has more kinetic energy, but the .30 luger round has more penetration ability than supposedly even the 9mm luger round.

I agree the debate will never end, but I personally prefer the P38.( Mine is set for between 75 and 100 yrds.) But luck plays a factor in combat, and as they say the one with the loaded gun at the right time just may come out on top.

Nowdays the 40 caliber pistol is the top shelf gun of choice, especially law enforcement, but many grunts in ww2 were extremely accurate with the .45, without all the accurizing kits and what nots available in present day.

So heres the final skinny for me.....If i had been in ww2, and was on the germans side, i would have wanted to carry and use a .45acp, captured from an american, as the germans used garands captured along with anything else american they could get when they had the need, and contrary to public opinion...not everything the germans carried or used was dependable. .IMO.

[Col.Klink]

For all of those who believe that a .45 has more stopping power just do a little thinking. The most energy that can hit the person you are shooting at is the amount that hits your hand as recoil. It then drops significantly from there as the velocity drops off. All of those cute bullet energy numbers are great for the side of cereal boxes but they honestly don't mean a thing. A PJ (USAF Para Rescue) I know once said that "when you are dealing with handguns you are not talking about serious firepower. I don't expect one particular round to do any particular thing, instead place the shot, assess the situation and repeat as neccessary".

It is true that a bigger bullet has the potential to do more damage to the target. But the primary thing is to hit the bad guy in a vital place. During the second battle of Alamein a German AT gun creman was hit in the side by a 40mm projectile! He made his way back to the aid station where they patched him up and he went back to his gun. Now that is knockdown power and yet it didn't even knock him down!

On the other hand if you get hit in the heart by a .177 air rifle pellet and you don't get help, you're going to die, and pretty quickly, and according to all those fancy formulas that has zero knockdown power.

on what Gary said

[gew98]

IMO there is really no debate in the stopping power close range(less than 25 yrds) .45 vs. 9mm.
Now straight out of the factory military issue 1911 vs. P38 on anything but fmj ball ammo I would side with the P38 all day long in so far as reliability.
If not you won't get through a clip in the 1911 without a jam(significant gunsmith work required to remedy), not so in a P38.

Now perry I don't get your statement. I have had minty to worn out GI 1911 and A1 pistols. They did and will eat any surplus ball like candy with nary hiccup... and oodles orf reloads so long as they not be pip-squeak paper punching loads.
Now the P38... jeez I've had safeties and firing pins break to include an extractor or two whne I had near a dozen super to shooter quality P38's. Oddly I cold shoot a tight group with most of the P38's but they all shot so low.. bad low. Now the 45's tended not to shoot such a tight group , but with the exception of the really worn and rode hard 1911's they tended to go close to where aimed. No pretty groups but it would have resulted in one dead hombre if hit
The P38's were always..always finnicky with ammunition , did I mention always. As mentioned they can and will go through parts if shot same as a GI issue 1911.... but the 1911 will rarely break a part and just keep on ticking along.
A P38 or P08 would be two of the last pistols I would stake my life on as a carry or self defense arm. They just don't measure up to the rock solid 1911/1911A1.
Some years back I had a local yokel - literal retard whom caused me some headaches. I finally got him sitting in his pickup insulting me from the open window of his 69 chevy beater truck. I pulled him out the window a tad an applied some good old fashioned 1911 makeup to his horse arse good looks. Left him knocked out with engine idling and called his "dad" to come get him before he had a fatal accident. Try pistol whipping some thick monkey skull boobhead with a P38.....nope.
Anyhow I digress. I have always liked how the P38 felt in hand and they are for sure fun to shoot... but if it's me and the bad guy... I want the GI 1911.
As one fellow noted I as well had a vet tell me of taking a couple 9mm pills in the thigh and hip after D-Day as a paratrooper and on rolling out of the line of fire he said he literally knocked the "kraut out of his boots" with a burst from his tommy gun.
I had known another vet that caught a german within a couple yards crossing a road on the move while he was in posiiton and his M3 greasegun knocked the unlucky soldaten to peices with alot of flipping.
I remember back in the 80's one fo the gunwriters had written of his experaince ( swear it was American Rifleman ) how he caught a burst in the leg and thigh while rounding a corner and walking into a german armed with an MP40. He had written the guy was a shade quicker but the 9mm pills where not lethal where they hit and his thompson ended the debate toot sweet. Mind you I'm no fan of the heavy arse tommy... even the military M1 version ( don't even ask about the M3... I liked it even less - especially when got issued one ! ).

[bigschuss]

During the second battle of Alamein a German AT gun creman was hit in the side by a 40mm projectile! He made his way back to the aid station where they patched him up and he went back to his gun. Now that is knockdown power and yet it didn't even knock him down!

Gary, do you have a source for this? To me, this sounds a little too fanciful to swallow....like the story about the guy who flung an M1 Garand clip in the air to simulate an empty clip and then mowed down all the Germans who came charging.

[MikeP]

No comparison what so ever.
Wimpy 9mm or hard hitting .45.

Delicate small parts and springs in the P38 and the robust near indestructible
1911A1.

I have experienced breakages, including a split slide over the years with P38s.
Nary a problem with a 1911.

Too many youngsters with no real experience. "If it is German it naturally has to be the best." gets real old sometimes

[Westmark]

1911a1

[Gary Cain]

Yes I do. It is in one of my many books on the Alamein Battles. I don't remember which one but I'll dig it out for you. It did not specify whether it was the left or right side but according to the book was a well known event. As far as the Garand clip stories you'll just have to talk to the 1st SSF guys that talk about it I guess.


Cheers
Gary

Gary, do you have a source for this? To me, this sounds a little too fanciful to swallow....like the story about the guy who flung an M1 Garand clip in the air to simulate an empty clip and then mowed down all the Germans who came charging.

[Gary Cain]

Plese reference simple Newtonian Physics quoted above!

No comparison what so ever.
Wimpy 9mm or hard hitting .45.

Delicate small parts and springs in the P38 and the robust near indestructible
1911A1.

I have experienced breakages, including a split slide over the years with P38s.
Nary a problem with a 1911.

Too many youngsters with no real experience. "If it is German it naturally has to be the best." gets real old sometimes

[bigschuss]

Yes I do. It is in one of my many books on the Alamein Battles. I don't remember which one but I'll dig it out for you. It did not specify whether it was the left or right side but according to the book was a well known event. As far as the Garand clip stories you'll just have to talk to the 1st SSF guys that talk about it I guess.


Cheers
Gary

No, I hear you. I just tend to be very cautious even with 1st hand vet accounts. I recall the story about the 1st SSF guys. And I recall that is was reported in an after battle action report, not 50 later when time clouds memory. The major problem with that story is that there is no "ping" if you simply toss a Garand clip in the air. Even though it was a 1st hand account, I personally do not believe that story.

Similarly, I do not personally believe that a human being could get hit by a 40mm round and simply get patched up and return to battle...unless it was a miraculously close graze that took off a patch of skin. But if that were the case, then the whole "knock down power' debate is a moot one.

As to the OP's original question, I've got to go with the 1911A1...and that's speaking from experience using both the 1911A1 and the M9 during my time in the military from 1987 to 92. I own and shoot regularly a 1911A1, a 92FS, and a P-38 today, and I still say the 1911A1 is my first choice.

[Gary Cain]

If it's the knockdown question you want answered look up .50 caliber rifle blowups. There is a well documented report of a rifle blowing the 3 pound bolt through the abdomen of the man shooting it from the bench. He was not knocked off of the bench, in fact he didn't even know what happened for about a minute. He knew something was wrong but couldn't figure it out till he looked down and saw the blood pouring out of him.
Additionally back around 1977-79, I can't quite remember the year, Peter Hathaway Capstick wrote an article for Guns and Ammo called "The Shock Myth Exploded" where he systematically, and with his particular brand of humor, shows how all of the bullet energy nonsense, is just that, nonsense. And he was one who knew of what he was speaking having been a Professional Hunter in Africa for many years.


Cheers
Gary

No, I hear you. I just tend to be very cautious even with 1st hand vet accounts. I recall the story about the 1st SSF guys. And I recall that is was reported in an after battle action report, not 50 later when time clouds memory. The major problem with that story is that there is no "ping" if you simply toss a Garand clip in the air. Even though it was a 1st hand account, I personally do not believe that story.

Similarly, I do not personally believe that a human being could get hit by a 40mm round and simply get patched up and return to battle...unless it was a miraculously close graze that took off a patch of skin. But if that were the case, then the whole "knock down power' debate is a moot one.

As to the OP's original question, I've got to go with the 1911A1...and that's speaking from experience using both the 1911A1 and the M9 during my time in the military from 1987 to 92. I own and shoot regularly a 1911A1, a 92FS, and a P-38 today, and I still say the 1911A1 is my first choice.

[bigschuss]

If it's the knockdown question you want answered look up .50 caliber rifle blowups. There is a well documented report of a rifle blowing the 3 pound bolt through the abdomen of the man shooting it from the bench. He was not knocked off of the bench, in fact he didn't even know what happened for about a minute. He knew something was wrong but couldn't figure it out till he looked down and saw the blood pouring out of him.
Additionally back around 1977-79, I can't quite remember the year, Peter Hathaway Capstick wrote an article for Guns and Ammo called "The Shock Myth Exploded" where he systematically, and with his particular brand of humor, shows how all of the bullet energy nonsense, is just that, nonsense. And he was one who knew of what he was speaking having been a Professional Hunter in Africa for many years.


Cheers
Gary

Gary, a bolt getting blown out of the receiver is not the same and does not hit with the same speed or energy as a .50 cal bullet. You obviously do a lot of reading and come across these crazy facts. But I think you're comparing apples and oranges. What does this .50 cal bolt story have anything to do with how hard a .50 cal bullet hits downrange?

Regardless, is it your position that a .50 Ma-deuce has no more knock down power than a .223? A .44 mag has no more knock down power than .22 LR? Is this what you (and Capstick) are advocating? I find this hard to believe.

Blair

[Gary Cain]

Hi Blair,

That is exactly what is being advocated but in a slightly different way. There is absolutely no question that a .50 BMG has more kinetic energy than a .223. The problem is delivering it. A .50 BMG that punches a hole through a person clearly takes 99% of the energy out with it. But that still doesn't matter a hill of beans. Capstick over a couple of decades saw over and over how very large calibre rifles failed to knock down animals.

Visualise this, a .460 Weatherby Magnum has a reported muzzle energy of 7,504 foot pounds. That means that when you touch that rifle off the bullet will supposedly move a 7,504 pound object one foot (that's what the ft/lbs abbreviation means in physics-feel free to look it up). I don't know about you but the last time I fired a .460 WBY it didn't move me a foot, and last time I checked I don't weigh near 7000 pounds! It does however have a free recoil force of around 135 Joule, which equates out to around 100 foot pounds of energy....that is how much real kinetic energy there is and that is variable depending on the weight of the rifle firing it.

Put another way, there really is no such thing as knockdown power. Newtonian Physics tells us (in fact it is one of Newton's fundamental Laws of Physics) that "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."
To make a ball roll along the ground you have to impart energy into it. After it is rolling, gravity, drag, friction and other forces will then imemediately begin acting on it to slow it down.

Bullets are no different. You expend a certain amount of chemical energy to get them going and then they start to slow down. But the absolute maximum amount of energy that they can have at the beginning is also the amount of energy that hits you in the hand when you fire it.

Does a .45 hit harder than a 9mm?... Yeah a little bit, about 1 or 2 foot pounds depending on the pistol shooting it. The primary advantage that the .45 has is it is bigger and bigger holes have a better chance of doing vascular and bone damage. But do you really think that .10 of an inch is reeeeaally that much of a difference?

That's why Capstick, and Cooper and all of the combat shooting instructors all say that you need to hit the target in a vital area for it to make any difference.


Cheers
Gary

Gary, a bolt getting blown out of the receiver is not the same and does not hit with the same speed or energy as a .50 cal bullet. You obviously do a lot of reading and come across these crazy facts. But I think you're comparing apples and oranges. What does this .50 cal bolt story have anything to do with how hard a .50 cal bullet hits downrange?

Regardless, is it your position that a .50 Ma-deuce has no more knock down power than a .223? A .44 mag has no more knock down power than .22 LR? Is this what you (and Capstick) are advocating? I find this hard to believe.

Blair

[Suber]

Having shot both these pistols regularly, there is NO question that I would choose the .45 ACP now, and for ANY situation. The .45 is a much more effective close quarter pistol with the mass 230gr vs the 115 that the 9mm Parabellum has. MassXVelocity wins the day. To add to the fire, this months Natl. Rifleman gave the Number 1 spot of BEST handgun to the 1911!