Mp 40 captured in the PTO?

[Joe Kravets]

I was talking to a guy from work and he said his grandfather was in the 37th SeaBee battalion in the PTO during WW2. His grandfather told him he sent home what sounds to me like a mp 40. The grandfather specifically said it was a german gun that was given to the japanese. Question: Have any of you ever heard of mp 40's being shipped to japan? Is this story at all plausable? I hope to be able to visit with his grandfather and see for myself exactly what he has.

[mkb42h]

i think japan used the bergman mp28ii.

[DennyB]

I have heard stories of a German 88 being found on a Japanese held island. I had a PTO vet bring back, at least he claimed he was, German gas mask canister dated 1944. It had what appeared to be Japanese writing on it but who knows if this was true. I could recognize a little Japanese writing from my time on Okinawa and it did look legit.

[Alan Smith]

I have seen and heard of a decent amount of German stuff coming back from the PTO. What happened is that post-May, 1945 (but prior to the A-bomb), some ETO units were shipped straight from Europe to the PTO as part of the build up for the invasion of Japan. These soldiers had ETO souveniers with them, among their personal possessions.

Just like any other soldier coming home from the PTO, they had to fill out "capture papers" for their souvenirs. Thus, by way of example I know of a P.08 with PTO capture papers due to such circumstances; this "Luger" pistol has absolutely no connection to Japan, other than a former ETO soldier had it with him when he finally got his orders to come home from his then-current duty station in the PTO.

Also, I've seen a photo of GI's on a ship coming home from the PTO, posing with war souvenirs. Mixed in with the Japanese items are German items.

To further confuse the issue, every once in a while you will see a Dutch East Indies contract Luger that was captured from the Japanese. Such P.08 pattern pistols, however, do not have WaA or other German military acceptance markings on them; they were part of a pre-war commercial contract with the Netherlands for its colonial forces in Java.

I would not be at all surprised to hear of an MP-40 that made it back to the States via the ETO to PTO, then PTO to U.S.A. route.

[rogerbh]

Regarding the 88 cannon, I have heard that US intelligence was initially thrown off by the name "Type 88" AA gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_88_75_mm_AA_Gun

Never heard of an actual German 88 in use by the Japanese.

I do believe I read somewhere where the Japanese got a sample, but it was too complex for them to put into production.

[theinglebaby23]

What is undisputed fact however, is that towards the end of the war German u-boats were running equipment (jet engines in one example if I remember correctly) to Japan. There were also several Japanese soldiers (probably advisers) killed(?) at Normandy as well. Granted that's all History Channel based facts, I think it's pretty safe to assume that some stuff was moving back and forth between the two theaters, although very limited.

Another thing to consider, if a Soldier/Marine had found a German weapon, he probably would have been a lot more likely to pick that up as a souvenir, which I thinks supports your contact's claim. I wouldn't be too surprised if it were true.

Rich

[rogerbh]

The Asians captured at Normandy were identified as Koreans.

[theinglebaby23]

Too funny. I hadn't heard the whole story on that one. Poor guy!

[Joe Kravets]

Thanks for the replies guys. When I get the chance to see it I will take some pics and give an update.

[DennyB]

I had never seen that story of the Korean guy in the Wehrmacht. I had always figured they were simply Russians with Chinese blood.
That poor guy sure could tell some stories, being captured by the Japanese and forced into the service, then captured by the Russians and forced into the Red Army, then captured by the Germans and forced to fight Americans in France. I am sure he was confused.
Denny

[Craig W.C. Brown]

Breast insignia on "Korean" is Ostvölker; he's probably a Kalmuk. The original National Archive caption says he is Japanese.

[Tim G]

Hi thier,

Thier was a definite transfer of technologies between Japan and Germany.
Several books have acounts of the large imperial Navy subs transiting to thier allies in europe. They would arrive with technicians, embassadors etc and also be stuffed full of critical supplies, murcury ,wolfram, quinine etc.

They would leave with returning personell and also examples of weaponry,
blueprints et al.

On one trip they even brought a reserve crew who returned with a new
U Boat gifted to Japan.

The quantities however would have been very small.

The germans also had a base of operations for thier long range boats that were operating out in the indian ocean. Returning boats that had a poor showing would be orderd to leave torpedoes out thier and return with a single war shot. Had to do that as thier was a high success rate on sinking the blockade runners due to ULTRA intercepts.

Tim

[rogerbh]

I noticed other comments regarding the asian in the photo I posted already.

"The name of the soldier in this photo is Kyoungjong Yang who was born in Shin Euijoo, Northwestern Korea on March 3, 1920. He was conscripted to the Kwantung army in 1938 and captured by the Soviets in Nomonhan and captured again by Germans in Ukraine in the summer of 1943, maybe in the battle of Kharkov, and captured finally by Americans in Utah beach, Normandy on June 6, 1944.

He was freed from a POW camp in Britain on May, 1945 and moved and settled in America in 1947. He lived near the Northwestern Univ. in Illinois until he died on April 7, 1992. He lived as an ordinary US citizen without telling his unbelievable life story even to his two sons and one daughter."

http://www.ww2f.com/battle-europe/22...-normandy.html

and if you read Korean, this article talks about a movie being planned based on his life.

http://search.hankooki.com/weeks/wee...4100061510.htm

[MikeP]

Just a comment.

I began collecting WW2 stuff about 1960.
Most of it was still in the hands of the vets.
My buddy and I got tons of stuff from local vets, some of whom were relatives.
I still kick the occasional piece out of the woodwork around here and no papers found so far in 48 years.
My experience is that paperwork with souvenier pieces was more the exception than the rule.

This is a subject that has taken on it's own life and most papers you see are in the hands of dealers and internet sellers and only appeared a few years ago.

I am only saying that one should beware of these papers and know they were not generally found with actual souveniers.
I believe a giant hoax has been foisted off on the collecting community.

Some of these papers are real, certainly some pieces went through channels. Most, I believe, did not.

[Matt Weber]

Boy, that Korean guy is what I call a true "veteran". Wow, I can't imagine what he must have went through. Amazing.

Now as for the subject of German weapons in the Pacific. I agree that it certainly is possible. It was a fact that many Japanese officers purchased European pistols for use rather than thier standard Japanese issued sidearms (they preferred a more reliable weapon I guess?)

Also, The Chinese had many Mauser rifles and pistols (broomhandles mostly) that they ordered from Germany before the war. I'm sure the Japanese captured many of these.

Now as for the artillery gun, I think that was just a confusion over the German "88" and the Japanese "type 88" gun. I don't think the Japanese would have had German "88" guns. They would have to produce the 88mm rounds then as well.

As for other weapons such as the MP40, again, they would have to produce the 9mm rounds. No Japanese made weapons of the time use the standard 9X19 (parabellum) round. Therefore I don't think they would have used these type of weapons.

Now, I have seen wartime photos taken of US troops posing with captured Japanese weapons. One of the soldiers is clearly holding a Luger in his hands! Now, is is a "German" luger? I'm not sure, and I don't think anyone can say for sure, wheather it is or not.

Now, as for the comments above made by Mike. I agree with him. When I first started collecting, I never saw any guns with capture papers. Maybe one in a thousand? if that. Now, you see them all the time. And people pay extra $$ for guns with capture papers! That's why I always say, "buy the item, not the story". I personally don't pay any extra $$ for a gun with papers. I also feel that the term "bringback" has been way over used.

Just my .02!
Matt