Anyone for Lugars?

[Matt Weber]

Haven't heard of the book that you mentioned, but I do have a "byf 41" luger, what is called a "black widow". However, mine has the checkered walnut grips. Byf 41s, and 42s came with both black plastic or walnut grips. Most collectors will actually remove the walnut grips on these to put on black plastic ones, since they think that this makes a "black widow". That is why the walnut gripped ones are rarer. (they aren't really rarer, but are less seldom seen since the collectors change them!)

You say that it has an aluminum based magazine? (is it a byf41 or byf42?) Correct me if I'm wrong, but these should have the black plastic base magazines marked "fxo". I'm not a real luger expert, so I'm not 100% sure on this, but this is what mine has.

As for grading the finish, 99% is basically what I consider to be a mint gun! I have a P38, byf43, that I would rate at 99%!
My byf41 luger I would rate at 95%, with mint bore. The only real area of wear is on the left side plate (which is the most common place for wear since it rubs inside the holster).
Ralph Shadduck is considered the top luger expert in the USA, and if he says that the gun is 99%, then I would have to say that it is so.

Matt

[Brian S]

According to the book mentioned, aluminum base mags also came with these. Also, the mag in my BYF 41 has the matching long serial number of 6058 and a funny 'u' which is also on the weapon. Also marked P.08 has the author says 'some' are marked with. Also marked with the obligatory Mauser Military Proof marked on reciver. The matching serial numbers proves the aluminum mag original to this piece.

[GerColctor]

41 byf mags

Brians
Mauser dated 41 Lugers were issued with both aluminum and bakelite based magazines. The aluminum type were serial numbered to the pistol.
I believe that it was unusal for a "u" suffix from this year to have an aluminum based magazine, but during production change over both types were used.
Most Lugers produced in 1941-42 were issued with walnut grips, but as Matt has stated, some collectors over the years have replaced them with the bakelite grips, as it makes the gun look sexier. Also the term, ''Black Widow" is more attractive to some people and thus may add to it's value.
My 1941 Luger with a "u" suffix, came with 2 bakelite mags and walnut grips, in a 1935 dated holster. Of all my Lugers, this is the only one I ever purchased directly from a vet.

[Matt Weber]

Sounds good!

My "byf41" luger is also a "u" suffix, with serial number- 75xxu. Mine came in a beautiful 1940 dated brown maker marked holster. This was the last year of the brown holsters, and also the last year that the full maker name was on the holsters. (after 1940, they used the code letter assigned to each maker).

Matt

[Brian S]

Personally, I think the aluminum adds some 'sexiness' to the dagger as it's the only silver on the weapon which would match an SS officer's silver visor eagle.

The book I've referred to shows only the Mauser Werks as the producer of the 41/42 BYF's.

I'm not willing to breakdown this mint weapon but I'd guess the grips are also serial numberd.

Can anyone identify the textbook meaning of the 'u'? Since two out of three of us have it it's probably not rare, but, still interesting.

[GerColctor]

Meaning of the letter "u"

Brians
The small letter is a suffix, which is part of the serial numbering system used on military German weapons. Until late in the war they used only 4 digit numbers stating at 1 and ending a 9999. When the next weapon was produced after 9999, the small letter was changed to the next one in the alpha. After the letter "z" was exhausted, the next series of 9999 weapons had no letter, which is called the no suffix series. Then it started over again with letter "a". The letter "j "was never used. It is estimated that there were about 126,000 Lugers produced that are marked 41, byf code.

Why do we all have the suffix "u" is a good question, may be just a coincidence. The serial range for that year started with the suffix letter "n" and ended in the no suffix range.

These military Lugers were not issued to the SS, but that orgaization aquired these weapons thru the Army.
Since the Luger holster is a closed style, the aluminum magazine cannot be seen, so it would not match the collar tabs of the SS. Also in combat, especially at night, who wants anything on them that refects any light and attracts attention.
Joe

[GerColctor]

Holster's makers mark

Matt
Some military Luger holsters still had the full marker's name on them through 1943. They were supposed to use code letters like every other manufacturer of military equipment, but for some reason they continued to display their full name. These full named holsters are considered to be rare.
Joe

[Tiger 1]

Some questions.

I read this thread because I have a interest in P-08s. I have owned a half dozen or so over the years and I still own a Bavarian MG unit marked one now.
Someone early on in this thread stated that Luger pistols were manufactered in Mexico, Brasil and Russia. I do know that there was a Russian contract for some Luger pistols as well as Portugese, Dutch, Iranian, and some others that don't come to mind right now. I know that the Swiss manufactured Luger pistols under license. My question is who manufactured Luger pistols in Mexico, Brasil and Russia? Can anyone clarify this for me or show examples of such pistols?
Thanks for your help with this.

[Brian S]

Pre-May 1945, Switzerland and England were the only countries to produce Lugers. Prior to that time you'll find various country marks on them only because they were specifically produced to be sold to those countries.

Waffenfabrik Bern made some Swiss models.

Vickers LTD in England made a Dutch contract model.

Mauser/Interarms items from the late 1960's are nice shooters but not considered Lugers by collectors. It's like Xerox making a '57 T-Bird. It might be a wonderful car, but it's not a '57 T-Bird...

[Matt Weber]

Good points Joe!

As for the holsters, do you happen to have one of these 1943 Luger holsters? That would be very rare! I have never seen one!? much less one with a full makers name on it? Are you thinking of a P38 holster? or perhaps a Krieghoff P08?

Matt

[GerColctor]

1942 holster

Matt
We have a 1942 dated Luger holster in black pigskin, that has the full manufacturer's mark on the back. The name is; Otto Koberstein - Andsberg. The back is also marked; P-08.

I unfortunatly do not have a 1943 dated holster.
Joe

[Brian S]

Matt I have two holsters. One is the brown 1939 properly W-amt stamped.

The other one is black and of course the maker's mark is right behind where the belt was and it's faint, it's black and it's 1939 with full maker's mark.

What do the 1943 holsters look like that would distinguish them from earlier ones?

[Sirius9024]

1943 Luger holster

I have a 1943 dated Luger holster. It is a rare one, I think it is rated a 9 out of 10 on the rarity scale, with the 1944 holsters being a 10 out of 10. This is three letter code of DLU and has the rarer full 1943 date, it is also proofed marked with a WaA and stamped P-08 in the upper right hand corner.
Lugers were stopped in 1942, with Kriegoff continuing production up until 1945 and I think they made an estimated total of under 2000 in those three years. I believe that holsters dated after 42 were made issued as replacement, since they are not E/2 proofed. That would be a proof that is primarily found and known as a Kriegoff proof mark. THe Kriegoff's were issued or bought by the Luftwaffe and the toggel had an anchor on it? Go figure and anchor on a weapon that was issued to a flying unit.
Matt, I don't understand the upload process. Send me your email address and I will forward the photos to you or tell me how to upload them. I have the photos on my computer and I dont have a web address.
I also have a 44 dated P-38 holster, but their common. If anyone is interested in this holster let me know, I'd sell it, but would rather trade it for a nice unit marked WWI Luger holster.
Brian
gercolctor@attbi.com

[Matt Weber]

Joe and Brian,

Can you guys post pics of these two holsters that you mentioned?
Brian, I sent you my email address, please send pics!
Joe, if you can't post pics, then PM me, and I'll send you my email address as well.

"dlu" code was for "Luneschlob, Ewald, Militar-Effekten-Fabrik, Soligen." I believe that they did make Luger holsters, however, I wasn't aware that they made them this late in the war! I need to see this holster!!!!!!!!!!

You are correct, Krieghoff did make lugers on a very limited scale for the Luftwaffe until 1945. Thier company logo on the toggle was an anchor with the letters "H K" on either side.

Matt

[Brian S]

Matt, if I'm the Brian, I don't have your email address.