reproducing waffenampts

[Tim G]

Hi thier Mr Pitts,

I can sort of see how you feel ,but have to confess that the lads are really right.
I wanted to have some representitive snipers but the real deal is waaaay to costly for my taste, however with carefull hunting it is possible to do , thier are mounts out thier and scopes. Yes i have a k98 with LSR, original scope repro mounts.The rifle is a russian capture but the correct manufacturer. I will not try to replicate waffens, and i have made damn sure that in the future when i shuffle of this mortal coil the next guy who may want it ( cant see my other half being very interested ) will know it is a put together. The rifle is marked and the paperwork is marked.

As a couple of guys have said, the folks who are up to no good have been doing this for years. If you are serious about collecting the premis very definatley applies of DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Learn learn learn. If an item is collectible someone will forge it. Buyer beware ( like we dont know :-) )

As for the fellas that have given good advice and been ignored, frustrating ,yes
But a fool and his money are soon parted.
regards
Tim

[ChrisCook]

Reproducting Waffs

I'll jump in line behind everyone else and say that fake stamps are the disdain of real collectors. It sounds like you already have a repro stock, but may I offer a suggestion? http://www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com/searchcart.php
I just bought an original 98 stock from them for a sporterized rifle, it came with all the original markings (and matching bands and handguard), and it is an ORIGINAL stock. However, anyone with any knowledge will immediately see that the barrel band numbers and bayonet lug numbers do not match my receiver and bolt. It looks the part, but it is in no way meant to deceive or mislead. Unfortunately, no matter what the intention may be, the fake stamps are often used in this manner. Chris....

[MikeP]

I wasn't expecting all this either, but..what everybody else said.

There's fakes enough.

[zinfull]

OK Fakes are bad and we are tired of seeing this put a tarnish on collecting. I have a problem with the bubba comment. If it is a true stock brought back form the war then the stock is part of its history and you should be proud that a solider cut the stock to fit the duffel bag so they could bring it home. To me it shows more class than a imported full stock. Don't mess with it and sell it to some one who will like what it is, not what you want it to be.

Jerry

[har wagner]

Pitts Duncan
you have a pm

[sszza2]

Bob,

It is quite true that fakes abound in the arms world. All that you said is true though I do not necessarily agree with your percentages. Close but not quite that bad.

Still the fraud in the arms world is not anywhere near as prolific as it is in the regalia / medal / blade and general militaria world. Where the mantra seems to be " a lie is as good as the truth unless you get caught." No, IMO the two are not even in the same ballpark.

The obvious difference between the two is that the arms world is making progress against fraud. Witness about half dozen successful federal prosecutions during the last 2 years. Several low key fraud prosecutions have also taken place. I have also witnessed a few big name arms dealers run out of shows for trying to sell known fraudulent items. The forums are much the same. Purveyors of BS items and BS information are regularly called out in the arms world and given no quarter. The good ol boy network can't protect them as it does in the smoke and mirrors, disinformation world of militaria.

I cannot think of any comparables in the militaria world. Let me relate a recent experience at the MAX which I believe fully captures the mentality of much of the militaria world. During MAX set-up I noticed George Juneau parading down the aisle proudly wearing his name tag on his cheesy suit. For those who don't know, Juneau and his partners the Pritchards, were federally convicted of numerous counts of fraud and theft from museums and individuals. Both were also kicked off of Antiques Roadshow for scams on the show. When I saw this vermin at the MAX, I approached one of the 2 show promoters and asked if he was aware that this federal felon, convicted of crimes within the hobby, was in his show. The promoter said "Oh you mean Juneau?" I indicated that was indeed who I meant. The promoter gave an imbecilic laugh and then walked away taking no action against Juneau. All the MAX certified dealer and high ethics BS offered by the MAX org just flushed down the toilet. And please don't waste your breath saying that nothing could be done. All show promoters have the right and obligation to remove attendees who denigrate or threaten the integrity of their show. Most including the MAX have language to that effect in their ad's and table contracts. Can you imagine a mope like Juneau taking legal action. Fortunately orgs like OVMS are not as fast and loose with ethics and act aggressivly to expel such vermin.

I have operated in both worlds throughout my collecting years and can say that the integrity of both worlds are not comparable. Perhaps this also has to do with the rather subjective nature of regalia vs. the more precise nature of arms. The top of the game in arms are able to identify high quality fakes and don't need to rely on panel decisions by a group of experts. Suffice it to say that my experience has been quite the contrary in the militaria world where panel decisions are the norm.

All that said, if the hobby and our investment is to survive both groups need to root out fraudsters and deal with them aggresively.

Scott

Fake waffenamps, fake eagle/C and eagle/K marks, fake serial numbering, fake renumbered commercial P08 sideplates, fake stock stamps have all been around for over 30 years and are still going strong.

I doubt 99% of the sniper rifles, 99% of the single rune, double rune and totenkopf mauser K98ks, 99% of all totenkopf marked Imperial lugers, about 75% of all 1896 Mausers. I doubt these because I have saeen so many fakes and reworked/refinished/renumbered firearms; many owned by big dollar blowhards who have long wallets and short IQs.

Go to any high end gun show and see all the 100% finished WWI US 1911's, lugers, mausers, snipers, and even black powder and early 1st generation colts. WOW, wome collectors just want mint anere are so many who will fill their needs with crap, albeit finely done crap.

As one high end gun dealer told me: "Hell, son, we are dream merchants just giving them what they want and deserve".

Bob Hritz

[Gary Cain]

Hi Scott,

I too came over to militaria from the gun collecting side and have to agree with you on most counts. One thing you need to take into account though is that firearms have gone up in value faster for the most part and that gave a considerable incentive to police their market. The books that have been available to the gun collecting fraternity have been well thought out and produced and the good ones have comperable values to firearms(Clawsons 1911 book as an exmple). All that being said I believe that forums such as this, and books being written by authors such as Herr Heukemes are catching this collecting group up quickly.+
Additionally the old guard of gun "artists" such as Ralph Shattuck, and Dave Buehn are still out there plying their wares and the finest fake firearms need true scientific research to determine their authenticity(I refer here to the excellent Patterson Colts that appeared 10 years ago that faked out EVERYONE), so even the experts need help occasionally.

I do also agree on the differences between the MAX and the SOS, the MAX is produced by dealers to make sales, the SOS is produced by collectors for other collectors!


Gary

Bob,

It is quite true that fakes abound in the arms world. All that you said is true though I do not necessarily agree with your percentages. Close but not quite that bad.

Still the fraud in the arms world is not anywhere near as prolific as it is in the regalia / medal / blade and general militaria world. Where the mantra seems to be " a lie is as good as the truth unless you get caught." No, IMO the two are not even in the same ballpark.

The obvious difference between the two is that the arms world is making progress against fraud. Witness about half dozen successful federal prosecutions during the last 2 years. Several low key fraud prosecutions have also taken place. I have also witnessed a few big name arms dealers run out of shows for trying to sell known fraudulent items. The forums are much the same. Purveyors of BS items and BS information are regularly called out in the arms world and given no quarter. The good ol boy network can't protect them as it does in the smoke and mirrors, disinformation world of militaria.

I cannot think of any comparables in the militaria world. Let me relate a recent experience at the MAX which I believe fully captures the mentality of much of the militaria world. During MAX set-up I noticed George Juneau parading down the aisle proudly wearing his name tag on his cheesy suit. For those who don't know, Juneau and his partners the Pritchards, were federally convicted of numerous counts of fraud and theft from museums and individuals. Both were also kicked off of Antiques Roadshow for scams on the show. When I saw this vermin at the MAX, I approached one of the 2 show promoters and asked if he was aware that this federal felon, convicted of crimes within the hobby, was in his show. The promoter said "Oh you mean Juneau?" I indicated that was indeed who I meant. The promoter gave an imbecilic laugh and then walked away taking no action against Juneau. All the MAX certified dealer and high ethics BS offered by the MAX org just flushed down the toilet. And please don't waste your breath saying that nothing could be done. All show promoters have the right and obligation to remove attendees who denigrate or threaten the integrity of their show. Most including the MAX have language to that effect in their ad's and table contracts. Can you imagine a mope like Juneau taking legal action. Fortunately orgs like OVMS are not as fast and loose with ethics and act aggressivly to expel such vermin.

I have operated in both worlds throughout my collecting years and can say that the integrity of both worlds are not comparable. Perhaps this also has to do with the rather subjective nature of regalia vs. the more precise nature of arms. The top of the game in arms are able to identify high quality fakes and don't need to rely on panel decisions by a group of experts. Suffice it to say that my experience has been quite the contrary in the militaria world where panel decisions are the norm.

All that said, if the hobby and our investment is to survive both groups need to root out fraudsters and deal with them aggresively.

Scott