NEED HELP - 82nd Vet Pick Up MP44 & MP40

[Tom Kibler]

I thought I'd come here to ask some helpful questions....

I have an opportunity to purchase an MP44 and MP40 (in addition to several other captured handguns), brought home by a vet who was attached to the 82nd AB in a glider outfit.

There are capture papers with the weapons. In 1949, the US Govt. contacted him to deactivate the weapons - which he allowed.

Unfortunately I have no photos - but they are in fair/poor shape, with mild pitting through out.

The vet has long since passed away and I have been approached by the widow. Years ago - she was offered a couple thousand for the lot...

What is a fair price I can offer her? I know this isn't alot of information - but it's been 2-3 years since I last saw them. The handguns include a P-38, Czech CZ Auto and one ugly looking Mauser Auto.

Thanks in advance and please feel free to email me or send a PM.

[r.blue]

Well..if they are legallly deactivated I would make her a decent offer. Condition will be more important on the handguns. If they are rough...offer a couple of hundred a piece for them.
The deactivated guns are different. The market has gone crazy on that stuff. I would offer her a couple thousand a piece for the deactived pieces.
If I'm not mistaken the transfer fee for dewats is a lot less than full auto transfers.
R.Blue

[Alan Smith]

On the machineguns, the key is whether the guns were registered with the federal government prior to 1968, regardless of whether the family has capture papers. While WWII capture papers have been used in extreme instances to force the feds to acknowledge that certain machineguns were lawfully registered and, thus, can be transfered to a new owner, those cases are few and far between and required extensive litigation in federal court.

Assuming the guns are registered with the Department of Justice's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives ("BATFE") and are deactivated, they can be transfered to you at $5.00 per gun on a BATFE Form 5.

Most folks, however, prefer to go ahead and pay the $200 per gun tax applicable to a "live" gun (using a BATFE Form 4 for the transfer), so that the gun is already considered to be fully functional when the transfer to the new owner is approved. The new owner can then reactivate the gun without having to do any further transfers and can avoid the otherwise applicable BATFE requirement of permanently marking the receivers with the name, address, etc. of the person reactivating (i.e. "manufacturing") the gun. Having to mark the receivers would, obviously, damage the collector's value of an original gun.

You need to be very careful here as the guns may be in legal limbo. If I were you I would contact the widow and obtain copies of ALL paperwork associated with the guns, as that is what you will need in order to make an informed decision. If someone has already offered several thousand dollars for the machineguns years ago, chances are very good that the person making that offer has already confirmed that the guns are registered.

Good luck and please keep us updated on these items. If you are serious about this matter and can come up with copies of the guns' paperwork, visit the subguns.com "NFA Discussion" message board and you can get all the detailed information you need.

Keep in mind that even a junky MP-40 or MP-44 can bring $10,000 and up if it is 100% original and legally registered. Machineguns are big dollar toys today so it sounds like you may be able to get some good stuff at a "right" price.

BTW: Do NOT contact BATFE about registration status as, once you do, the "cat's out of the bag" and you will be powerless to stop what will likely end up an effort by BATFE to seize and destroy the guns. Simply stated, if you can not confirm registration to your satisfaction, then walk away from the deal and let others who are more knowledgable in this matter step in. You can find such knowledgeable persons on the subguns.com NFA board.

[ChrisCook]

MP40/44 Value

Just as an example Tom, an MP44 or MP40 Parts kit (no receiver) can fetch anywhere between 2400-2800$ on Gunbroker.com and other auction sites. If I was in your position, and the weapons are kosher to acquire, then I would pay that approximate price for each weapon, maybe slightly more due to the capture papers. Real MP40's are fetching around 18K from what I've been seeing. Chris..... BTW....I've enjoyed your books!!!!

[Bill in VA]

Alan is pretty much on the money. Unless the guns in question are listed in the NFRTR (National Firearms' Registry and Transfer Record) they're contraband and cannot be registered. There have been a few (note: a very few) cases where DoD/military "capture papers" have been accepted as legal registration but this is not the general rule.

If the guns are registered they can be transferred with a BATF Form 5 (Tax-exempt transfer...not $5) or with a BATF Form 4 (Tax-paid transfer.) While the BATF has accepted a Form 4 for transfer of a registered dewat, the correct form to use is a Form 5. (You don't want this to come back and bite you in the fanny several years from now that it was improperly transferred and thus, potentially an invalid transfer and resultant illegal possession.) Note: whether the guns are first transferred on a Form 4 (tax-paid) and then reactivated, or transferred on a Form 5 (tax exempt) and then reactivated on a Form 1, it's going to cost you $200 per gun to have a live machinegun. It's best to do the paperwork in the proper order: Fomr 5, then Form 1. You should also be aware that the BATF will not approve a transfer if your state/local laws do not allow MG possession. You'll also need the fingerprints, photographs, CLEO sign-off, etc..., no matter which way you go.

Value? At present, an original MP40 is worth about $12-14k, the MP44 is about the same. A papered dewat is worth about the same as a live gun, perhaps only a little less...remember, what you're paying for is a piece of paper saying you're kosher. If the guns aren't registered, their value is only as parts kits...like Chris has said, $2-3k each. If she's a widow, play straight with her, tell her what the guns are worth. She could probably use the money, and might even work out a deal for you at a lower price just for palying straight. (Besides, what if it was your mother/grandmother? You'de want her to get the best price, wouldn't you?)
My .02

[Alan Smith]

Bill,

Thanks for the clarifications re: Form 5 vs. Form 4; I got mixed up a bit on these issues.

If these are registered guns I sure hope that someone gets them transfered out in short order. In my view the guns are already in limbo from being held by the widow for (apparently) many years when the guns are most likely not registered to her but, rather, registered to the long-deceased husband. Hopefull BATFE will recognize the widow as the administrator of the vet's estate, with authority to transfer them to third parties.

The biggest danger I see is that the widow might pass away with nothing having been done about the NFA items. Unless the heirs are astute on NFA issues, lots of bad things could happen to the guns' registration status depending on what the heirs did or failed to do.

Bottom Line: An NFA savy collector needs to step in here and "rescue" these guns out of their current situation, so that transferable status can be maintained. Otherwise govt.org wins if two (2) highly collectable NFA items end up being contraband.

Note: Just in case anyone is wondering, NFA items are not merely "registered" with the feds but, rather, each individual NFA item is noted in the federal records as being registered solely to the person (or entity) who is legally entitled to possess it. Thus, just because a deceased vet registered the guns back years ago does not mean that anyone can come along and simply take possession of them. Rather, an NFA item can only leave the custody/control of the person to whom it is registered if BATFE approves the transfer of that specific item to another person or entity. The federal scheme in place here is not merely a gun registration system, it is a "people registration" program.

In cases of estates (i.e. the situation at issue), BATFE has in the past been willing to allow the estate administrator to possess the NFA item for a "reasonable" time, to afford the estate time to have the item transfered to a new owner. As far as I know, there are no legal decisions as to what consitutes a "reasonable" time for an estate to hold a NFA item, but if you start push several decades (as has happened with some long-deceased WWII vets), I would get very concerned that BATFE might take the position that the estate waited too long and the gun is now contraband by virtue of it having been in the possession of someone to whom it was not registered.

[Gunbunny]

Just a suggestion that you check your local and state laws as well. Some states like mine (Washington) forbid the ownership of weapons like those. Technically in my state it's illegal even to own machine gun "parts", although the law is seldom inforced. State laws will take precedence over federal firearms laws.

[Tom Kibler]

OK fellas, UPDATE

I've just returned from her home and she has paperwork on the StuG44 (which is actually stamped MP-43) and the MP40 (which is marked "bnz.43").

The paperwork is from the US Treasury Dept Form 6 dated January 1947 and marked "RENDERED UNSERVICABLE".

The ball is rolling and I'm in the process of determining if they are legally registered. She and I both want to do this whole bit legally. She's agreed to sell them if it's legal.

[Bill in VA]

If she has US Dept Treasury papers, the guns are legal and transferable. Value on registered dewats is about the same as a registered live and transferrable MG. (FWIW, an MP43 will generally bring a few more dollars than a "ruin of mill" MP44.)

[Alan Smith]

The Form 6 registrations from 1947 are GREAT news! Yes, as stated above the guns are legally registered and BATFE will have to process the transfer to you, assuming you are legally qualified to possess the guns.

BTW: Make sure that you obtain several nice, clean copies of the Form 6's right now - prior to starting the BATFE transfer process, and keep them in a safe place. Also, make sure the widow keeps the originals in an absolutely secure (and fireproof location).

I offer these suggestions because there is a possibility that BATFE may have lost its records of the registrations over the years, will deny the transfer applications, and take the position that the guns are not registered. The widow will then need her original paperwork when she brings the matter to BATFE's attention. Not to sound alarmist, but it is possible that the widow's duplicate originals of the registration paperwork are the ONLY evidence of registration that still exists as of this date. Thus, these pieces of paper are absolutely critical to the survival (and transfer to you) of these guns.

If you get a chance, please post some photos of the guns and paperwork. I've heard of (but never seen) the 1947 type paperwork you have encountered. My understanding of this time frame (a/k/a the "1947 Amnesty") is that BATFE's predecessor entity (then under the Dept. of Treasury) embarked on a registration campaign for WWII bring-back machineguns. Obviously, if you post the paperwork be sure to redact the personal identifiers, so that you protect the widow's privacy and no one can jump in and mess up your pending transfer.

Also, don't forget to document as much as you can about the vet's service time - ask for photos, unit history books, service records, etc. that you can keep together with the guns.

Thanks for the update.

[Tom Kibler]

Here are some pics... I will be selling them if I get them.

Both have magazines.

Email below for more details.

[Tom Kibler]

Mp40 "bnz 43"

[Tom Kibler]

Some Help Please of Form 6

I've been told that since these are "RENDERED UNSERVICABLE" that they are nothing more than a "DeWat"(sp). and therefore worth nothing more that a parts kit.

I've offered the widow several thousand for the lot. I do intend on selling them, but don't want to pay more than a parts kit - if that's all they are worth.

Can someone help me out? I've getting information that says the form 6 is bad and now another that says it's good news....

Thanks in advance.

Feel free to email me at tlckkibler@verizon.net

[r.blue]

If they are registered "dewats" then they are worth $ becasue they can be reactivated. You'll have to transfer them when you buy them but I think the transfer fee is pretty cheap.
Member Ben Lefever can advise as to value and form questions. I'll call him and see if he'll email you.
R.Blue

[Bill in VA]

If you have anythioing from the ATTU, IRS, of BATF that says tehy haev some sort of record of these MGs, then that will qualify as being "registered." (Ex. see the recent Crane case at: http://www.nfaoa.org/resources.html scroll down to "Ken Crane DEWAT case")
If they are registered, whether they are live or not, they worth much more than simply "parts kits." Any registered MP44 here in the US is worth an easy $12,000-14,000. The same for any registered MP40. Go to subguns.com and post your question there...you'll get the same answer.