Announcement

**Tom Kibler** · 10-24-2006, 09:14 PM

Update

Well gentlemen, thank you. I've been able to successfully confirm that the weapons US Treasury Form 6 constitutes a valid registration and the ball is rolling to bring these pieces of history to a new home.

I have been inundated with offers on them, and frankly - I have to wait until the process is done.

Thank you all very much for your help!

**Lignemaginot** · 10-25-2006, 03:05 PM

I bought a deactivated MP40 at the militaria show in Arlon back in 2001 for about EURO 600 when I was living in Luxembourg; it had rust pitting on one side, but wasn't a total write-off. I sold it in 2004 for 1000 Euro on ebay to a guy in Belgium. Ebay subsequently wrote to tell me that I wasn't allowed to sell that type of thing on their site, and they refunded me all of their charges (despite the fact that the deal had laready been done).

So, does the enormous price of these things in the US come from the paperwork? Because MP38 or MP 40 show up at Arlon and Ciney quite regularly, and go for about a maximum of EURO 2000.

**Matt Wilson** · 10-25-2006, 05:58 PM

Naw,

It's just the law of supply & demand. Anything that wasn't on paper w/the BATF after the '68 GCA will NEVER be legal in this country. So if you find one in someone's attic that didn't get registered during the '68 amnesty, there is NO LEGAL WAY to possess it. So the number available is limited. Combine these circumstances w/the arguable notion that we have more disposable income than grey matter, & you have the formula for $10K, $20K, $30K machineguns... Just my $0.02

Best,
Matt

**Bill in VA** · 10-25-2006, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Matt Wilson View Post

Naw,
Anything that wasn't on paper w/the BATF after the '68 GCA will NEVER be legal in this country. So if you find one in someone's attic that didn't get registered during the '68 amnesty, there is NO LEGAL WAY to possess it. Best,
Matt

No.
It has to do the 1986 FOPA/Firearms Owners Protection Act, and more specifically, 18USC CH44 922(o) which prohibits to possession and transfer of any machinegun registered after May 19, 1986 (regardless of date of original manufacture.) The bottom line is that unless the MG was registered by May 19, 1986 it cannot be possessed by or transferred to/from anyone other than: A) a government or law enforcement agency; B) an FFL/SOT with a legitimate demonstration request from a government or law enforcement agency; or C) the FFL/SOT who manufactured the post-1986 machinegun.
The 1968 GCA's effect on machineguns was to prohibit their importation except for the use as a sales' sample (again, restricting possession/transfer only to LE, gov't., and FFL/SOTs.)

**Matt Wilson** · 10-26-2006, 01:37 AM

Bill,

Does that mean that an MP40 that grandma discovered in her deceased veteran husband's footlocker in '79 w/o any federal paperwork could be legally registered w/the BATF at that time?

Thanks,
Matt

**Andy B.** · 10-26-2006, 05:26 AM

I am curious, if the machine gun was dewatted (or made inoperable) then why would any sort of paper work be needed? The gun at this point cannot be made to fire so its basically a piece of metal. Why would ATF need to get involved with any sort of transfer?
Andy B.

**Tom Kibler** · 10-26-2006, 05:48 AM

The Other pieces...

P-38 byf "e" series

Attached Files

P38 a.jpg (91.1 KB, 349 views)

**Tom Kibler** · 10-26-2006, 05:50 AM

A Czech CZ Model 27

Attached Files

CZ Auto a.jpg (104.5 KB, 348 views)

**Tom Kibler** · 10-26-2006, 05:51 AM

And a Mauser 1910 (I think??)

Attached Files

Mauser a.jpg (100.5 KB, 366 views)

**Bill in VA** · 10-26-2006, 07:16 AM

Matt, you asked, Does that mean that an MP40 that grandma discovered in her deceased veteran husband's footlocker in '79 w/o any federal paperwork could be legally registered w/the BATF at that time?

The answer is yes and no. Up until May 19, 1986 it was perfectly legal under federal law to file a BATF Form 1...a Tax-paid application to make and register a firearm ("firearm" being the NFA definition under 26USC CH53 5845.) However, you could not legally register a pre-existing unregistered machinegun, with one exception: the November, 1968 amnesty. The '68 amnesty was a 30 day open amnesty...no requirement to pay the tax, no requirement to show that the MG was legally registered at any time prior to the amnesty, not even limitations on who could register an unregistered MG. The result was that felons, under-age persons, etc... registered MGs with legal immunity to federal prosecution. Likewise, a large number of MGs were registered in states which prohibited MG possession.

FWIW, 1968 also required the registration of DeWaTs/inoperable MGs...prior to that, plenty of dealers sold MGs with little more than a plugged barrel. For example, InterArms would let you come into their store, pick out your MG and let you take it down into the basement to fire it. Then, after you'd fired it and paid for it, they'd weld it shut while you waited, and send you home, with no paperwork, and a welded-shut MG, still warm from the arc welder. Getting back on track though...

Under a scenario like you describe, the only legal way to register grandpa's unregistered war trophy would've been to cut the receiver in two, effectively destroying it, then filing a BATF Form 1, and upon receipt of the approved Form 1, welding it back together. (Of course, at that time, a simple saw cut through the receiver would suffice, as opposed to three diagonal torch cuts through the receiver nowadays. There are plenty of "rewelded"/ReWaT'ed MGs on the US market even now. As long as they're registered in the NFRTR they're legal under federal law.) This brings us to our next question...

Andy Berentsen asked, if the machine gun was dewatted (or made inoperable) then why would any sort of paper work be needed? The gun at this point cannot be made to fire so its basically a piece of metal. Why would ATF need to get involved with any sort of transfer?

The simple answer is because under federal law, the MG is still a live MG, regardless of its ability to fire a bullet. (Note: there is a difference between demil'ing and DeWat'ing an MG. Demil'ing means destroying, or de-militarizing the gun...destroying the receiver with three diagonal torch cuts through the receiver. Demil'ed MGs are nothing more than parts sets...they do not contain an intact receiver. The vast majority of DeWats (deactivated war trophy) had little more than something like the barrel plugged with molten lead or concrete, or the bolt welded to the chamber, and the barrel welded to the receiver...they looked like they were supposed to look, but they wouldn't function/fire a cartridge.) But back on track....

Under US law (18USC CH44 921(a)(3) a firearm's definition includes (B) "the frame or receiver of any such weapon." An intact receiver IS a firearm, even if there are no other parts, such as a barrel or bolt attached to it. (This is why you need an FFL to purchase a tripped AR15 receiver, for example.) Moreover, an intact reeiver isn't the only qualifier for an MG. 26USC CH53 5845(b) defines an MG, as "any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger." (emphasis added.) Thus, if the receiver is intact, or is improperly destroyed (such as by saw cutting), you have a firearm. And not only is it a firearm, it's also an MG because it was "designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot" automatically. While "readily restored" isn't codified under federal law, the BATF has issued opinion letters (but no rulings yet) that they consider "readily restored" to mean anything that can be returned to a shootable condition in * hours' time (or less) in a machine shop. Of course, we all know that in 8 hours' time in a good machine shop, you can take a solid block of steel and make almost anything...a crank shaft, a car motor, or even a machine gun....which is why I think BATF is content to stck with only an opinion letter. A law, or even a formal BATF Ruling would be too easy to overturn in the courts.

**JoeW** · 10-26-2006, 08:40 AM

Have the crazy prices also effected submachine guns and machine guns of pre-WWII times like the MG08, the 08/15 and the wooden stocked SMG like the 18I, 28II, Erma, 34 and 35?

**Bill in VA** · 10-26-2006, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

Have the crazy prices also effected submachine guns and machine guns of pre-WWII times like the MG08, the 08/15 and the wooden stocked SMG like the 18I, 28II, Erma, 34 and 35?

Yup. Everything has gone up. Here in the US, unless you're extremely lucky (like tlckibler), you're not going to find a transferrable MG for under $2500-3000 (which will generally be something like an M11/Nine or a MAC 10.) Any C&R MG, like an 08/15 or MP18 will command a premium price. The last 08/15 I saw for sale was somewhere in the neighborhood of $13-14k, and I can't even remember when I last saw an original transferrable MP18 for anything under $16k

**Matt Wilson** · 10-26-2006, 11:05 AM

Thanks Bill,

What you said is what I "thought," but didn't articulate very well. I was referring to (although I didn't make it very clear) high-end, all original war trophies. After re-reading my brief commentary, I realize I created more loopholes than I closed w/that contribution. Thanks for clarifying & getting me back on track.

I do remember everyone & his brother cranking out anything that could pass as a receiver, & stamping it w/a serial number in early '86. It was worse than 15 April, watching them scramble to submit their paperwork & try to get those "guns" registered before the sunset. O' the days...

Thanks again,
Matt

**Andy B.** · 10-26-2006, 03:17 PM

Thanks Bill for the info!! I never really understood the difference between demilled and dewatted-but you cleared it up nicely.
Andy B.

**Tom Kibler** · 11-04-2006, 06:22 AM

Gentlemen -

I owe you a very big THANK YOU! Because of the information that was supplied, because of a good friend who is also a forum member and is very familiar with this type of transaction, the deal is done!

Thanks again for the forum!

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