Rare SS Pack Prototype Dagger

[JR.]

So Pack made Xmas SA scabbards impractically or replaced any Xmas dagger scabbards with steel after initial production.

Will,

This is the scabbard from the 2nd SS Pack in this topic discussion. As you've mentioned, the unique period finish on the shell and to go with the profile of the lower chape ball, matches that of the OP's dagger which he received from this grandfather.

[Frogprince]

Excuse me.
Option 1: Pack made Xmas SA scabbards impractically
Option 2: Pack replaced any Xmas dagger scabbards with steel after initial production.
Option 3: ALL Pack Xmas SA daggers have post war scabbards (steel scabbards).

The OP dagger scabbard has (over)turned screws top and bottom, with on the two I could clearly see - one being more more damaged than the other. Is that a commonly seen factor with these "Pack Xmas SA daggers" steel scabbards? Fred

[nickn]

I don’t understand what your point is
Lots of sa ss scabbard screws have been tighten or removed to take out and clean the runners

[JR.]

As most collectors know, very few SA or SS scabbards have totally virgin screw heads. Either tightened up by their original owners, or by collectors after the war and since 1945, it is not an indication that the edged weapon has been tampered with. The same is true of pommel nuts.

[The Red Baron]

Will,

This is the scabbard from the 2nd SS Pack in this topic discussion. As you've mentioned, the unique period finish on the shell and to go with the profile of the lower chape ball, matches that of the OP's dagger which he received from this grandfather.

Exactly. In some pictures the sheen appears as a paint, but this is definitely anodized/blued with a heavy lacquer that apparently held up much better than the typical, later settled on process. This is obvious from the fact that both scabbards show age, but the finish is significantly better condition than you would expect on a later dagger even with annodizing/blueing and lacquer.

As to the steel bodies on these, I guess Fred is implying that every single Pack SA Xmas dagger has had their scabbard bodies replaced with a steel body (and as to the SS, which was finished, with this unique (matching), process) after the war........

[Mac 66]

Personally i think the grip eagle is origional to this dagger, if this was in the same family from the OPs grandfather how the hell was it replaced with a copy ?, where are the dig out marks on the grip ?, also i think the scabbard is origional to the dagger, lots of over thinking going on here , keep it real with common sense.

[JR.]

In Den's analysis, he describes the original as most likely being lost or damaged. While he touches on the OP's style as seen in reproduction circles, he does not infer that the one in the OP's grip is in fact post war. At least that is how I've read it.

[JR.]

Or possibly the original 1934 style eagle being denazified some where along the line ?

[Frogprince]

As most collectors know, very few SA or SS scabbards have totally virgin screw heads. Either tightened up by their original owners, or by collectors after the war and since 1945, it is not an indication that the edged weapon has been tampered with. The same is true of pommel nuts.

Screws that had to be tightened up because the daggers were used for what exactly? Street fighting? Bar fights? Pommel nut inspections with wrench marks for removing them to assist in that? Or was it because of all of those internally moving parts that caused them to work loose? Personally having seen more guns that I have wanted to that were messed up postwar. And if I was someone on the fence - how do you explain the OP lower fitting screw that looks like it has the most damage in both directions?? Fred

[JR.]

The scabbard screws are tiny, and not that tightly held into these fittings or the shells. These edged weapons were sometimes worn on a daily basis, banged around, and more. The screws came loose. I've seen it even on mint screws that have no marring what so ever.

[JR.]

Let's get onto something of the most importance other than debating the impact tightness of scabbard screws. Like Den mentioned the blade. And more importantly, the Rohm dedication on it.

[Mac 66]

The scabbard screws are tiny, and not that tightly held into these fittings or the shells. These edged weapons were sometimes worn on a daily basis, banged around, and more. The screws came loose. I've seen it even on mint screws that have no marring what so ever.

Also they are soft metal & damage easily with wrong screwdriver head being used,

at least you talk sense mate & know the score with these daggers.

[Frogprince]

Personally i think the grip eagle is origional to this dagger, if this was in the same family from the OPs grandfather how the hell was it replaced with a copy ?, where are the dig out marks on the grip ?, also i think the scabbard is origional to the dagger, lots of over thinking going on here , keep it real with common sense.

Attaching emblems to the HJ knives I think can show some parallels. Pins spread out underneath the grip locking the emblem in place. The same seen with the later SS and SA daggers that is a little different because there is a hole in the grip down the middle for the tang where the pins can spread out. But all that can be seen with the Pack daggers in question is a small nail which is not nearly as secure. But obviously good enough as the conventional (accepted) early period eagles show. Not something where I have a specialists knowledge/expertise, I did see a comment or two on one of the forums where the wood grip's time period was called into question. Fred

[Frogprince]

The scabbard screws are tiny, and not that tightly held into these fittings or the shells. These edged weapons were sometimes worn on a daily basis, banged around, and more. The screws came loose. I've seen it even on mint screws that have no marring what so ever.

That's why gunsmiths (and maybe some dealers - others) have custom made screwdrivers to try and prevent that problem. When I had one of my S&W's upgraded at the factory level, not only were the screws perfect, even the side plate (which normally never-ever come off) showed no signs of being removed and replaced. Fred

[JK53]

On both of the daggers the motto letters are joined up why ? Yet on other pack daggers they aren't .
Post 29 the photos of the screws on the bottom of the scabbard the bottom screw doesn't seem to match the other screws ?