Dagger market crashing??

[ivbaust]

Yes, the dagger market will crash. Believe me. It will start soon

So act before it’s too late!!! Sell all your mint and tagged SA and NSKK daggers for $500 to me, before they’re worthless

Summer slump discussion

[Dobson]

Here is some observations of mine to the topic “market is chrashing”
I have always had this interest in collecting original german WWII stuff, some 20 years ago I found it impossible to enter this hobby seriously. Because of the price levels, I would have to prioritice hobby over many other important things in life like raising kids, buying house, car etc etc.
Now I am one of the grey dudes with very little hair on top, but I enjoy financial independance and can afford collecting and spending loads of time travelling to fairs, dealers and trawling the internet for hidden gems and knowledge. I belive this is one of the reasons why it seems like its older people collecting this stuff.
I live in Europe, and just a few years ago started visiting fairs like Kassel, Ciney and others and noticed that serious dealers with serious pieces always has loads and loads of customers. Good pieces are ripped away immediately and generally are very hard to find.
When following updates on serious dealersites in Europe, good standard items like SA, KM, SS are sold almost the the second they are put online.
But if market is crashing in the US on theese original german daggers, pleeease come to Europe and sell them all ;-) and overflood our market with high quality items

[saar]

Like others already mentioned, there is no 'dagger market crashing' in Europe, especially in Germany. Quite the opposite actually.

[JimW]

I find the hysteria here interesting. 1st, let me clarify I never said the dagger market was crashing. I pointed out that the price of one non German dagger crashed when reproductions of that dagger were marketed. I specifically pointed out that this mainly applied to non German daggers because so little was known about them.


The next thing I know people are discussing the dagger market crashing world wide quoting me as the source. I blame the school system. They apparently do not teach reading comprehension.


That being said. The same trend was observed when the Polish daggers kept being produced and more recently the Italian daggers are coming form the factory with almost identical hangers as the originals. While long time collectors can tell the difference the value of Italian daggers was reduced about 30% and there were no other economic changes. Don't even get me started on what the reproductions of Hungarian daggers has done to the Hungarian market.

Anyway, please continue your discussion.

[Wim Vangossum]

Let's not forget that fake daggers are still pretty easy to detect due to the many parts involved by it's production. Combat awards are copied at a much, much higher level and they still sell for more and more money. So I can hardly believe that better copies ruin the marked. Besides this all condition is everything. If you want to sell mint and tagged stuff there will always be guy's prepared to lay down the necessary money for it. But don't expect any value for worn out SA daggers or armies; they are piles and piles of that worn stuff. At the end, when these collectibles enter the world of true antique they will be solely judged by their condition, nothing more, nothing less..


Regards, Wim

[Serge M.]

Hi Guys!
When I was little the old men would say 1. there is no new blood entering the hobby. 2. The fakes are too good and 3. The prices are too high!
That is when a Knights Cross was about 300 dollars, chained SS were 400 or so SAs were 100ish and so on.
Gailen David and I had this talk 20 years ago. There are tons of new and young collectors, times have changed. Now they are on face book and other places. Guys don't start hitting shows until they are older and have a more solid financial ability to travel and buy something for their collection. Many claim there is no interest in the 3rd Reich, if that were so why would they still make movies and video games based on this time period?
This same argument is argued in other collectible areas too. In some cases it is true, other cases it is not. Don't you guys find it strange most of the antique and collectible markets turned down at the landmarks I mention in my previous post? How could the masses decide at the same time to stop collecting and crash the prices?
The second the tax cuts took place in the US dealers did see a pick up in their sales. It will take time for the economy to improve and the money to trickle down, we still need our factories back to recreate our middle class. When and if this happens we will see the prices increase dramatically again, we will see.
Bob

I agree with Bob.
When i got out of the hobby in the mid-1970's it was mostly because of the Atwood 'Parts daggers'. There was no true reference materials out there to tell the difference.
Atwood's own book (which was considered the 'Dagger Bible' at the time) had many fakes in it.
However, today there are many excellent reference books where one can study and learn first, before you buy. Just to get a basis of what your looking to acquire. Wittmann's series are excellent, as is Ron W's, on the NPEA and HJ.
But who buys books these days and study? Just us old guys, who have seen, and handled many blades over the years. We know, there much still to learn. I'm still learning.

If one doesn't want to study, and put research time into the hobby, well... you got what's coming to you. Sorry to say that, but in my view, 'it is what it is'.

Asking members on WAF threads 'Guys is this good', is OK, but not if your really wanting to learn about what your buying. I see trends where many collectors are willing to spend many thousands of dollars on blades but won't spend a few hundred on key research materials.

Oh, yes, now on 'The Market'. It has changed, and I agree with Bob, it's economic.
However, Good straight daggers, it great condition, do still sell. Just don't expect 'Big Ticket' prices.
Common daggers with condition issues, are a very slow sell these days. At the big shows, 10, 12 years ago, the Russian dealers used to buy piles of them. Even de-nazified examples. They are gone now due to sanctions (economic condition).
Army, 1st and 2nd Luft's, SA's & NSKK's, unless they are unusual, are slow sellers, unless the price is a 'deal'.
However, scarce models, SS daggers in great condition, Damascus, Presentation, researchable daggers, still sell, and sell well at top prices.

Just my views and observations.

-Serge

[BobI]

Thanks Guys, I though I was the only one to notice the reality. Beeny Babies are dead and will never come back, carnival glass will never reach the level it did. I am undecided on civil war and other early American swords, I have recently taken an interest in. I need another collectible like a hole in the head! Right now they are down super low, very little to no movies or video games, I think they have bottomed out. As a cool piece of history I think they are as low as they will go and can only go up but.....who knows for sure! In that area I see very few new people getting in.
To this day there are new WWII collectors, the better the fakes get the better the research! Most people just repeat the age old argument without the facts!
Best Wishes,
Bob
PS- Serge, you must have the fountain of youth! You must be older then I though, I figured you had only a couple of years on me!!

[Serge M.]

PS- Serge, you must have the fountain of youth! You must be older then I though, I figured you had only a couple of years on me!!

Your too kind.

BTW, When I was a exhibitor at the Great Western show in Commerce (L.A., Pre-Pomona) back in the early 70's, there was this skinny guy walking around with a placard, front and back, around his neck, saying: I Buy German Daggers.
I used to snicker at the guy due to him being too cheap to get a table. Find out later that he was snagging all the good stuff before it would enter through the front door.
Decades later, at a MAX show, while discussing the 'Ole Days', this one guy says; "That was me". It was David Gailen. Talk about a small world in this hobby.

Yep, those were the days. Vets bringing in more stuff than you can hope to buy.
Prices were reasonable, and dollars bought a lot. I filled my 68 Z-28 Camero for $5. - Leaded Premium.

-Serge

[Mac 66]

Oh, yes, now on 'The Market'. It has changed, and I agree with Bob, it's economic.
However, Good straight daggers, it great condition, do still sell. Just don't expect 'Big Ticket' prices.
Common daggers with condition issues, are a very slow sell these days. At the big shows, 10, 12 years ago, the Russian dealers used to buy piles of them. Even de-nazified examples. They are gone now due to sanctions (economic condition).
Army, 1st and 2nd Luft's, SA's & NSKK's, unless they are unusual, are slow sellers, unless the price is a 'deal'.
However, scarce models, SS daggers in great condition, Damascus, Presentation, researchable daggers, still sell, and sell well at top prices.

Just my views and observations.

-Serge

Hey Serge, you pretty much hit the nail on the head mate




For me personally its been hard to buy daggers & other TR stuff since the Brexit vote with the fall in the Pound Sterling against the Euro & US $ when buying overseas, i guess a lot of other collectors from the UK are in the same boat as me, quality conditioned daggers & uncleaned woodwork daggers will sell well imo, ive not bought much at all in over a year, sign of the times i suppose


Good to hear the market is still strong over the channel





Regards Mac 66.

[DAZZA3483]

That is when a Knights Cross was about 300 dollars, chained SS were 400 or so SAs were 100ish and so on.

Christ almighty how I envy your collecting generation!!

[N.C. Wyeth]

Yes - it is that same old conversation again. Good Luck to us all!

The next thing I know people are discussing the dagger market crashing world wide quoting me as the source. I blame the school system. They apparently do not teach reading comprehension.

Anyway, please continue your discussion.

Blame the school system? Reading comprehension? Uh-Huh . . . Yeah - Sure. Typical. A fall from such a high horse is painful - but as you imply to be so mighty, I'm sure you already know that.

Thanks Guys, I though I was the only one to notice the reality. Beeny Babies are dead and will never come back, carnival glass will never reach the level it did. I am undecided on civil war and other early American swords, I have recently taken an interest in. I need another collectible like a hole in the head! Right now they are down super low, very little to no movies or video games, I think they have bottomed out. As a cool piece of history I think they are as low as they will go and can only go up but.....who knows for sure! In that area I see very few new people getting in!

OK, Bob - you're on. Mark my words - I bet one day within the next decade, you will look back in déjà vu and realize what we are talking about here transcends across all things collected - including this stuff.

For me personally its been hard to buy daggers & other TR stuff since the Brexit vote with the fall in the Pound Sterling against the Euro & US $ when buying overseas, i guess a lot of other collectors from the UK are in the same boat as me, quality conditioned daggers & uncleaned woodwork daggers will sell well imo, ive not bought much at all in over a year, sign of the times i suppose

Good to hear the market is still strong over the channel

Regards Mac 66.

Not bought much in a year, all for economical reasons. But when the economics become better, will you jump back in - gangbusters? Or will you be a little more cautious about how deep you jump back in, after realizing how volatile the "ups" and "downs" are becoming in today's World? Let's face it - the sense of security that all of us felt a decade or more ago is no longer there . . . and most of us recognize how fragile financial security has become. Even if times get better, how close to your past sense of spending on your collection will your future sense be? Sure - economics play a big role in collecting . . . but how the economic patterns are evolving will play a much bigger role in the future for all of us.

[monty]

Christ almighty how I envy your collecting generation!!

... maybe you might envy the pittance of pay we got back then too? e.g when I started collecting in the late 1970's my pay was around $65US a week. My first 1939 EK2 cost me around $25US.

[Ron Weinand]

69 ss/rs

Serge you had a 68 Z28? I always wanted one, but settled for a 69 SS/RS with Endura bumper, Hurst 4 speed and Moon Hubcaps. I still have it with 86,000 miles. Now I have a Z06 that is my driver and the SS/RS is in a heated garage.

[dr01]

There is a BIG difference in dealer prices and collector prices. I’ve seen websites of big dealers that are asking more than $ 1.000 for a standard army dagger (I'm not talking about an early slant gripped one, just a mid or late period common piece). That’s about twice the price you would pay when buying from a collector. That means that if you buy at dealerprices in todays market and later try to sell it to another collector you will (most likely) take a big loss.

Ofcourse nobody knows what the futere beholds but I find it hard to believe that in the future the prices of daggers will rise to a level that a collector will get the prices that dealers are asking nowadays.

I don’t see the dagger market crashing in the future but it’s not investment material eighter. If you only buy daggers in excellent condition and only buy from other collectors there is a good chance that you will get your money back if you want to sell a few years later. Just my 2cents.

Danny

[Ron Weinand]

When a collector decides to sell, he usually wants to sell it all and most collectors who buy usually won't buy the whole collection, Then it becomes a collection where it has been cherry picked and the better pieces are gone and you are left with the junk and in the end, the collector looses. This is why dealers exist and usually are in business. They make getting out of the hobby possible and this is the main reason we have dealers. Also, those dealers who stand behind their items is something which you don't get from a single sale in some instances. At shows, "collectors" tend to disappear.