"Christmas" SA full röhm dagger

[Serge M.]

Id like an opinion from someone who will see it live, not only on pictures, and that collector has an original E.P&S. Prototype in his collection

So where is it ?

[The Red Baron]

This is a really great read--although I do fear it is one of those threads where someone calls it bad and discussion is stunted insofar as people are quietly deriding anyone who disagrees with the conclusions. Anyway, I really am interested in the grip on this piece, among other things. But I don't see the "rounded" shoulders mentioned below and on the Christmas daggers I have handled, the grip fit was almost identical. Very interesting piece, thanks for sharing.

[Serge M.]

This is a really great read--although I do fear it is one of those threads where someone calls it bad and discussion is stunted insofar as people are quietly deriding anyone who disagrees with the conclusions. Anyway, I really am interested in the grip on this piece, among other things. But I don't see the "rounded" shoulders mentioned below and on the Christmas daggers I have handled, the grip fit was almost identical. Very interesting piece, thanks for sharing.

Please point out where is someone 'deriding' someone.

Since you have handled Christmas daggers, do you have a opinion on the originality of the dagger ?

[krikke1980]

This is a really great read--although I do fear it is one of those threads where someone calls it bad and discussion is stunted insofar as people are quietly deriding anyone who disagrees with the conclusions. Anyway, I really am interested in the grip on this piece, among other things. But I don't see the "rounded" shoulders mentioned below and on the Christmas daggers I have handled, the grip fit was almost identical. Very interesting piece, thanks for sharing.

Yes Baron, I aggree. I to still finds this an interesting dagger.
The grip is all that a Pack Christmas dagger must have. I don't want to condamn this piece either right away.

[Mac 66]

Someone liked it, sold for 48000zl = £9,837.99 = $13,064.83

[tk99]

No one is deriding anyone. I appreciate and thank Serge and busterz111 for their response. We may not agree with one another but I hope we can discuss our disagreements like men. I don't mind being wrong and learn something.

Several things. As for the handle, I understand that it may not fit tightly but remember, these are hand carved, early prototypes. With all the Christmas E Packs that I have held, and see in photos, none fit perfectly.
Do you think the EPack with Wittman to be real?
Eickhorns are a different story.

As for the fit of the eagle on the handle, it was a lesson learned by Eickhorn and E Pack. Hand carving the wood to fit the eagle's head and pointed wings was difficult so they had to use "fillers" for the gaps. That's understandable.

In my humble opinion, I think the "R" is correct. I hope you are comparing them to Christmas Rohm E Packs and not to regular M33 E Packs. You can't have that many example. For me, I see nothing wrong. However, there is something else about the Rohm inscription that makes it legit (my apologies for not disclosing this as not to help the fakers).

Serge, I agree with you that the stamping on the cross guards don't match what you know but please remember, we don't know all the conventions that was used. You are basing it on very limited data.

I love Christmas daggers. Of all the daggers I was blessed to own, it's my favorite. These are the daggers that set the standard and launched a whole new movement. It's not surprising people are skeptical because you can count in one hand the number of full Rohms that survived. So instead of flaws, I hope collectors can see the value and the history of these super rare specimens. Thank you.

[The Red Baron]

I agree that we should not be so quick to dismiss this one. The grip is really intriguing to me as I think it is in line with the other christmas daggers I have handled. As is the grip insignia. Really a cool piece.

[busterz111]

TK99...If I could make a quick point...The People that Manufactured these Daggers and Other pieces in Solingen Were Professional Craftsmen that Knew how to make anything and a Prototype or sample would have been Just a Ridiculously High Quality...Fit and finish would be stressed And The Gaps,Miss fitting eagle,Pits in the Crossguards Just would have NEVER Passed an Inspectors eye...If these were Delivered with such poor fit They would have never been Accepted at delivery.

[The Red Baron]

TK99...If I could make a quick point...The People that Manufactured these Daggers and Other pieces in Solingen Were Professional Craftsmen that Knew how to make anything and a Prototype or sample would have been Just a Ridiculously High Quality...Fit and finish would be stressed And The Gaps,Miss fitting eagle,Pits in the Crossguards Just would have NEVER Passed an Inspectors eye...If these were Delivered with such poor fit They would have never been Accepted at delivery.

I would respectfully disagree here. People say the same thing for SS and Himmler daggers, among others, and between the wood shrinkage over the years and the realities of production, I think the perfection we expect just isn't reality. Even with prototypes or honor daggers.

[Frogprince]

Not an SA dagger here is an extreme as found example of a closely related political dagger that has seen a lot of water damage. Something that's probably no surprise to (combat) weapons collectors who see what they collect in conditions varying from really bad to new or near new depending on their age and history. With what I found fairly interesting with this example being the condition of the wood grip, scabbard, etc. FP

[BobI]

Often this is how you will see daggers that were stored in moist environments. I have seen daggers where the scabbard must have been wet inside or the blade was really wet and only the blade was affected. I have also seen many blades that were exposed to acid and they look like this one, either way, I am not a fan.
Bob

[Serge M.]

It's the 'Miracle SA Christmas Dagger from Poland' (assuming that's where it was found).

A miracle only the blade was so terribly effected, but the not the rest of the dagger, and the grip left 'minty' by comparison.

I don't believe in miracles in daggers, but that's just me. They either look right, or they don't. Fred's Chained SS Looks 'right'. Coltpython's does not look right to me. So, I'm not a fan either.

IMHO, someone got ripped-off for $13,000.

-Serge

[busterz111]

I would respectfully disagree here. People say the same thing for SS and Himmler daggers, among others, and between the wood shrinkage over the years and the realities of production, I think the perfection we expect just isn't reality. Even with prototypes or honor daggers.

I see your point...but lets use this analogy....This dagger made late 1932 Maybe early 33...Not many being made at all. Compare it to Regular Production 1935, we see those daggers quite a bit today...Little to no shrinkage...Blades In Nice shape,Most show average wear but even beat ones dont look like these...Now take RZM Production...STILL High quality and great fit and finish...if you have ever seen a truly mint RZM dagger they are something to behold.

So why would a dagger whose total number....far less than 100... be of absolute **** Quality Fit and Finish.

[Bulldog]

Can anyone who personally knows Wittmann verify how long he has had his christmas dagger for, he states in his wright up that he has had it for at least two decades, and as it is also thought to be fake and the blade is in a similar condition although not quite as bad as this one could the fakers have been faking these christmas daggers for this long, would we not have seen more of them if they were. Wittmann mentions the guards on his are internally marked SS, is this correct for these daggers? I guess the new owner of this one did not see Wittmanns for sale as he could have bought his for just over a grand cheaper and its in slightly better condition, although like this one probably not real.

Russ.

[busterz111]

Can anyone who personally knows Wittmann verify how long he has had his christmas dagger for, he states in his wright up that he has had it for at least two decades, and as it is also thought to be fake and the blade is in a similar condition although not quite as bad as this one could the fakers have been faking these christmas daggers for this long, would we not have seen more of them if they were. Wittmann mentions the guards on his are internally marked SS, is this correct for these daggers? I guess the new owner of this one did not see Wittmanns for sale as he could have bought his for just over a grand cheaper and its in slightly better condition, although like this one probably not real.

Russ.

2 Decades Breaks down to 1998...Thats NOT long ago and thats also 10 years after very good fakes hit the markets wittmann should just base the opinion on the item...Wittman Uses that lame Date excuse on everything...Its just an easy way to separate ones self from the Truth