NCO SS Sword

[Del Panfini]

NCO SS Sword

pic 3

[Del Panfini]

NCO SS Sword

I didn't hear from anyone. I was wondering if there aer any opinions o these new pics. Do you think iit is a Dachau piece? Any help would be appreciated.

Del

[mattty]

Oak leaves on the Dachau Ferrules always appear wide and flat, they have a pebbled background finish where the light reflects to give a slight darkening in the hand.
Ferrules and pommels usually seem to be shined up to look like stainless steel, but in actual fact under very close scrutiny the only actual stainless steel is the D guard, reverse grip strip, top grip piece and the rostfrei Blade.
The SS runes (on an officers) are always shined up to look like stainless but again from my findings they are only ever shined up steel.
Usually Dachau Scabbard fittings are stainless IMO.

Worth also noting that under certain conditions Stainless can ever so slightly rust or pit.

This could have been a GI bring back/parts. IMO there no parts that are significantly shouting out reproduction although the ferrules a mystery why its been seemingly soldered.

rgds matty

[Del Panfini]

NCO SS Sword

Matty, thanks for your help. I would think that all of the furels are welded together. The one on my sword probably shows the seam because of finish loss.

Thaks,
Del

[Frogprince]

Oak leaves on the Dachau Ferrules always appear wide and flat, they have a pebbled background finish where the light reflects to give a slight darkening in the hand.
Ferrules and pommels usually seem to be shined up to look like stainless steel, but in actual fact under very close scrutiny the only actual stainless steel is the D guard, reverse grip strip, top grip piece and the rostfrei Blade.
The SS runes (on an officers) are always shined up to look like stainless but again from my findings they are only ever shined up steel.
Usually Dachau Scabbard fittings are stainless IMO.

Worth also noting that under certain conditions Stainless can ever so slightly rust or pit.

This could have been a GI bring back/parts. IMO there no parts that are significantly shouting out reproduction although the ferrules a mystery why its been seemingly soldered.

rgds matty

Stainless steel can rust under some generally limited conditions. But that would not normally be with a polished type finish, and is what the German military used for specific military applications. Not the least of which was for other purposes specific to nickel and chromium as critical alloys for the Wehrmacht. Which is why they were placed on the list of restricted materials in 1935. FP

[Frogprince]

A minor correction: Stainless steel can rust under some generally limited conditions. But that would not normally be with a polished type finish, and stainless steel is what the German military used for some specific military applications. Not the least of which was for other purposes specific to nickel and chromium as critical alloys for the Wehrmacht. Which is why they were placed on the list of restricted materials in 1935. FP

[Frogprince]

Oak leaves on the Dachau Ferrules always appear wide and flat, they have a pebbled background finish where the light reflects to give a slight darkening in the hand.
Ferrules and pommels usually seem to be shined up to look like stainless steel, but in actual fact under very close scrutiny the only actual stainless steel is the D guard, reverse grip strip, top grip piece and the rostfrei Blade.
The SS runes (on an officers) are always shined up to look like stainless but again from my findings they are only ever shined up steel.
Usually Dachau Scabbard fittings are stainless IMO.

Worth also noting that under certain conditions Stainless can ever so slightly rust or pit.

This could have been a GI bring back/parts. IMO there no parts that are significantly shouting out reproduction although the ferrules a mystery why its been seemingly soldered.


rgds matty

A topic that surfaced elsewhere with some interesting verifiable period information that added to the discussion. I found the above to be an interesting observation on the fittings of these particular items that were made up with a curious admixture of stainless steel, and ordinary carbon steel polished to look different, but not plated to prevent or resist rust as well as some other variables. So they had stainless steel to make some components, but no nickel to properly finish them? With 1935 when nickel and chromium became restricted items - I'm wondering what Göring and Speer might have had to say concerning that, having a recollection of the period writings about the obstacles that the Third Reich was facing in accomplishing its goals. FP

[DALE ELLIS]

It amazes me that there is so little good information on the sword making operation at the Dachau forge. I guess with the death of Herr Muller we will never know more. I wonder if any of his apprentices are still alive.

[Frogprince]

It amazes me that there is so little good information on the sword making operation at the Dachau forge. I guess with the death of Herr Muller we will never know more. I wonder if any of his apprentices are still alive.

Still active until his death in the 1970's, also having those who followed in his footsteps, Müller was a known creator of many fakes. Most likely starting while still at Dachau to support himself after the fall of the Third Reich. But scattered about there are fragments of period information which are verifiable. There are of course the "Birthday" swords which are unquestioned physical evidence, that is also confirmed by other period evidence. Another part of it from his SS file, with Manfred Sachse (a Damascus smith himself) devoting a section in his book to Müller with some photos. Listing by specialty three of his small number of apprentices by name who were at Dachau to learn how to make Damascus steel. A (blade) grinder, a Damascener, and a (blade) hardener. FP

[DALE ELLIS]

Thanks FG, as always for your broad knowledge of the sword. It is very sad that there is such a fog over Müllers work. I have owned quite a few of the unmarked Dachau produced SS degens and have no doubt about their originality but have always stirred clear of the pmd marked ones.

[Frogprince]

Thanks FG, as always for your broad knowledge of the sword. It is very sad that there is such a fog over Müllers work. I have owned quite a few of the unmarked Dachau produced SS degens and have no doubt about their originality but have always stirred clear of the pmd marked ones.

While some guys love them even more than the others - as the thread posted below shows you are not alone in that still others don’t want to have anything to do with them individually or as a group. (Since this 2010 thread more information has been added to the period data for stainless steel.)

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=434618

As for some more information that does not seem to be disputed: From dated examples, the ‘PMD’ dates on the Damascus “Birthday” swords appear to have started sometime in 1940. Müller was a lifetime salaried civilian contract worker for the SS not an entrepreneur. That did not own the significant physical assets at Dachau - who according to Manfred Sachse was warned by Berlin to show more enthusiasm for his work at the Dachau Reichslehrschmiede (teaching forge). Confirmed (presumably) by a letter in his file regarding a leave or leaves of absence for Müller in the period of 1940 and 1941 due to his age and health etc. that could be broken up. With a stipulation that if the RF-SS Himmler wanted a special order made (presumably one of the Damascus Birthday swords) that Müller was to be ready to carry out such a request from the RF-SS. FP

[Del Panfini]

NCO SS Sword

The rust that was on the handle must have been transferred from something else, possibly the scabbard which I do not have. I wiped the cross guard off and the rust came off. The handle is non magnetic. The other parts are magnetic. The furall might not have been finished or it lost all of it's finish. I don't know. I took it apart and took a few more pics. Let me know your opinion.

Thanks,
Del

[Del Panfini]

NCO SS Sword

pic 3 & 4

[Del Panfini]

NCO SS Sword

last pic