Army Dagger Crossguard Reference

[WW2-Collector]

Tom, I just love that early slant Paul Seilheimer.

-Serge

Thanks Serge - Boy this is one rare crossguard ! I have only seen a total of 3 and that includes this one.

[Serge M.]

Tom, This one in my stash; Is this one a Type one Pack ?
.

[Bulldog]

[QUOTE=Serge M.;8349324]Tom, This one in my stash; Is this one a Type one Pack ?

Serge that is a type 1 Pack, lovely hand enhancing.

Russ.

[Serge M.]

Russ, Thank You.

-Serge

[WW2-Collector]

Just saw the post Serge - yes a nice Type -1 Pack - great enhancement on this one

[Serge M.]

Thanks Tom.

[Bulldog]

Here's the Wingen and Horster guards, i believe these are the same basic guards with different hand work done to the chest and head, and this Horster has the same number (8) of feathers on the second row of the left wing.

Russ.

[Bulldog]

Here's this guard again on an early Puma, this raises an even bigger question as to who the actual manufacturer of this guard was, but I would rule out Wingen and Puma with these being very small producers.

Russ.

[Saufaenger kid]

Is this a Generic B crossguard

Gary

[Bulldog]

Hi Gary, yes that is a generic B guard. Ferrule is Eickhorn.

[gerrit]

Hi Russ,

im sure that the Puma slant has a different eagle as the Wingen and Horster you showed.
In fact i own that Puma slant and im aware of 2 others, 1 belongs to a friend of mine and pics show that the brest and legs, and wing feathering do not match the 2 guards you refer to.
The head form is a cast and not a hand enhanced form, unlike the Wingen.
So far i have only encountered it on Puma slants.
But there is more from the woodwork, recently a couple of Höllers came to the surface with a Horster type 1 style guard but with a difference head shape, if you look at the LST side you can see Paul got one listed too.

Here a Holler compared to the Puma, same guard as the Puma you showed.

Ger

[Bulldog]

Hi Ger, for me these guards have all came from the same basic (Horster type) guard, a bit of hand work here and there can easily give a guard a different look, but it is still the same basic guard. I don't know how the guards were cast but another possibility is that one guard was cast from the other with some small details altered before the final casting took place, I think its easy to see how one guard could have been made by using the other. I respect your opinion but it appears we are not of the same opinion on this.

Russ.

[Bulldog]

Ger, I have had a good look on LST of the Holler you show in post 41 and it (for me) clearly exhibits hand work done on each side of the body which makes it narrower than the body on the Puma, a bit of filing/chisel work or a slight alteration to a mould could alter the look of this guard for each producer.

Russ.

[gerrit]

Hi Russ,

well the Puma is not like you say just a bit of carving, the die itself is much more detailed, and the head shows the eye and beak that in all 3 cases are exactly the same, also its not possible to create the puma guard from a Wingen, there just isnt enough meat to do so.
Im sure the Puma had its own very detailed die ( that didnt need a lot of handwork) and for sure is not an altered Wingen doing some carving.
Furthermore you say following:
"Horster has the same number (8) of feathers on the second row of the left wing

Please count them on the Puma.....

i agree we disagree.

Ger

[Bulldog]

Hi Ger, the 8 feathers on the Horster example I showed was for a comparison with the Wingen, but you also, like Puma, find Horsters with 9 feathers on the second row of the left wing, please see the link to the Horster on Tom's crossguard reference site and count the feathers. You also say about these Puma examples that they had their own detailed die, but on Warrelics forum you say "This dagger is full of hand engraving, look at this beautiful carved head", this contradicts what you are saying here. Just to clarify, Wingen have 8 feathers on this guard, Puma have 9, and Horster can have 8 or 9, it appears some alterations have been taking place with this same basic guard.
http://tom-kendall.com/ww2-collector...r-type1-45.jpg
Russ.