Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[Serge M.]

You can show this Knife 500 times....this is not real...it's a Fake....and a bad fake...I have see 1000 HJ Knifes here in Germany....this ist so bad...nothing on it is real...you can buy here 100 of this knifes .... this is one of the baddest copies i have ever see...If you want to see a real one i can send you some pics...

Gesendet von meinem SM-G930F mit Tapatalk

misanthrop,
I am sending you a PM with my email address. You can send the photos to me and I will post them for you as a accommodation.
Regards,
Serge

[damasco]

For what it is worth, I bought 5 of these knives directly from the vet's hand back in the late 1970's or early 1980's. He said he got them out of the factory but didn't say which factory. I eventually sold one to Tom Johnson.Sold the rest over the years,,,I also purchase this youth knife from Col. John Kirby's estate sale. He was a friend of Adolf Galland,& I also acquired some of Galland's memorabilia at this sale that Galland had given Col. Kirby,,,What is the opinion of this knife?

Yes, it is a known fact that Robert Klass made this style without HJ insignia. As shown here on this thread in a 1936 catalog..
I have no clue if this is one of them..

[Frogprince]

Now that the discussion has been clarified and reset into the middle of 1943 it eliminated some of the earlier confusion about the timing in another post. That post being about the 1944 bombing when things were getting even worse for Germany.

Yes, the bombing in Solingen a picture book has been printed about it.
There is a Eickhorn bomb damage inventory list in factory archives that was compiled by WKC employee for insurance purposes. Also pictures making bayonets and MG parts.

But, as was pointed out, there is still no known evidence of things like the blades having a clipped or Bowie style blade versus the approved RZM version style - having the stamped Eickhorn logo etc. With my question being what else is in the Eickhorn archives that might have some kind of bearing on the topic to help fill in the gaps? FP

[Frogprince]

Yes, it is a known fact that Robert Klass made this style without HJ insignia. As shown here on this thread in a 1936 catalog..
I have no clue if this is one of them..

damasco, this was discussed earlier and the Klaas knives have iron/steel hilts as do the 1941/1942 contract Brannik knives that were made by them. The one just posted looks like aluminum. Regards, Fred

[Serge M.]

But, as was pointed out, there is still no known evidence of things like the blades having a clipped or Bowie style blade versus the approved RZM version style - having the stamped Eickhorn logo etc. With my question being what else is in the Eickhorn archives that might have some kind of bearing on the topic to help fill in the gaps? FP

Fred,
Speaking of Bowie HJ knives, I recall how many collectors (back in the day), called them fake or 'parts'. It didn't seem to matter how many of us got them from veterans who stated that they acquired them in a factory.
Until finally Lt. Col. T. Johnson posted one in a book, did some start to 'believe'. However, to this day, not everyone believes these to be period.


So, on these small knives, where we have evidence or period paper sacks with their printing DJ designation, where there is now documented factory evidence of 'small' HJ type knives being listed as bombing casualties, and where veteran collectors with hundreds of years combined experience in the hobby, have been acquiring these from veterans for no money, as they were mostly, use as a 'Toss In' to Sweeten the Pot kind of item, it doesn't surprise me that they are considered by some collectors today as Non-period.

HJ diamond attached to scabbard or not, there is growing evidence that these small DJ style knives were period produced. In any case, that is where the evidence is weighing in on the scale for me at this point.
.


Best of Research,
Serge

[Frogprince]

Fred,
Speaking of Bowie HJ knives, I recall how many collectors (back in the day), called them fake or 'parts'. It didn't seem to matter how many of us got them from veterans who stated that they acquired them in a factory.
Until finally Lt. Col. T. Johnson posted one in a book, did some start to 'believe'. However, to this day, not everyone believes these to be period.


So, on these small knives, where we have evidence or period paper sacks with their printing DJ designation, where there is now documented factory evidence of 'small' HJ type knives being listed as bombing casualties, and where veteran collectors with hundreds of years combined experience in the hobby, have been acquiring these from veterans for no money, as they were mostly, use as a 'Toss In' to Sweeten the Pot kind of item, it doesn't surprise me that they are considered by some collectors today as Non-period.

HJ diamond attached to scabbard or not, there is growing evidence that these small DJ style knives were period produced. In any case, that is where the evidence is weighing in on the scale for me at this point.
.


Best of Research,
Serge

Serge, Here is where we step into a minefield. Not myself an HJ specialist, I think that now it’s accepted that WKC made Bowie style blades early in the TR period. Before the RZM regulations were published and enforced which could include being removed from the approved maker list for various infractions. As for the one you posted - it IMO has some problems. The first being that it has an RB number on the sack which means which that it is a German Army regulated item, with the use of the RB numbers starting in 1943 in lieu of the letter codes for essentially the smaller type items for the Wehrmacht. So having an HJ knife for the Wehrmacht to me makes as much sense as the HJ knife in one of TMJ’s books with a Waffenamt on the handle. In other words - bogus markings although the HJ knife itself may or may not have been period. For the Bowie style knife with a back fuller(?) and oversized grips and a really large leather washer ……. who knows ……. maybe as an item for the Wehrmacht it also has some Waffenamts on it?? So I’m not buying it, and for years have had some doubts about the true expertise of some of those in TR collecting when they cross over into different areas.

With the inventory by an employee from another company I can understand that. But it’s very vague as to what he was listing. He only listed some blades and no scabbards, hilts, or grips and all of the RZM documentation seen to date only shows one style of blade and none of them have the Bowie style points. Neither do any of the Eickhorn catalogs that I’ve seen. Were the blades only ‘in process’ items or fully finished with markings and ready to be installed? Were they for a different type of hilt that had dimensions that had been changed for some reason? Questions that we don’t yet have an answers for. As for the unquestionably sand cast aluminum hilts that’s something else. A process that was normal in the later 1930’s for various blades with aluminum hilts/fittings when it was introduced, there are some later outlier HJ knives that have aluminum hilts. But the overriding facts are that aluminum was heavily used for military purposes, and there was an overwhelming switch to zinc castings - posting earlier an example of a zinc die cast dress bayonet hilt by Eickhorn that had never been installed. The aluminum hilted "Olympic" etc. knives - from what I've seen there is no way that they can be original period items.

Vet stories, vet stories, and more vet stories. Don’t get me wrong - I’m an Army veteran myself and have tremendous respect for those who have served in the past and those who are serving now. But I’ve also had families of veterans come up to me and ask my opinion on handfuls of daggers that were all postwar and undoubtedly later acquisitions. And even seen the very disturbing use of older gentlemen that were hired by some much younger guy to sell items off their table as legitimate bring backs. Almost all of them bogus or humped up. So I respect the men, but judge the items on their merits. And for now I’m working on a translation of the documents to see what else might be there that can shed some light, and waiting to see what else might be available from the archives. Best Regards, Fred

[misanthrop8118]

misanthrop,
I am sending you a PM with my email address. You can send the photos to me and I will post them for you as a accommodation.
Regards,
Serge

Ok....i drive in the next 2 weeks to a good friend....i make you some good pics....sorry for my bad english...i want to say 2 other things to this knifes...but first i must look for the right words...on this two thinks you can see that this knife is not real...I will wright you in the next days exactly with the right words what I mean....

Gesendet von meinem SM-G930F mit Tapatalk

[damasco]

post later

[Serge M.]

Serge, Here is where we step into a minefield. Not myself an HJ specialist, I think that now it’s accepted that WKC made Bowie style blades early in the TR period. Before the RZM regulations were published and enforced which could include being removed from the approved maker list for various infractions. As for the one you posted - it IMO has some problems. The first being that it has an RB number on the sack which means which that it is a German Army regulated item, with the use of the RB numbers starting in 1943 in lieu of the letter codes for essentially the smaller type items for the Wehrmacht. So having an HJ knife for the Wehrmacht to me makes as much sense as the HJ knife in one of TMJ’s books with a Waffenamt on the handle. In other words - bogus markings although the HJ knife itself may or may not have been period. For the Bowie style knife with a back fuller(?) and oversized grips and a really large leather washer ……. who knows ……. maybe as an item for the Wehrmacht it also has some Waffenamts on it?? So I’m not buying it, and for years have had some doubts about the true expertise of some of those in TR collecting when they cross over into different areas.

Fred, Correct me if I'm mistaken, but are you saying that if there is a RBN number displayed that it was ment to only be a item issued for the Wehrmacht ?
If so, why are RBN numbers seen on for example luftwaffe stamped items like this newly posted Fighting knife ?
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=919966

Regards,
Serge

[Frogprince]

Fred, Correct me if I'm mistaken, but are you saying that if there is a RBN number displayed that it was ment to only be a item issued for the Wehrmacht ?
If so, why are RBN numbers seen on for example luftwaffe stamped items like this newly posted Fighting knife ?
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=919966

Regards,
Serge

Serge, point noted but the Luftwaffe was a part of the Wehrmacht. The R.B.Numbers seen on most of the bayonet frogs from about the mid 1943 period were for all of the armed forces, which is well after the German Navy and Luftwaffe discontinued their own distinctive markings. Another example being the WaA markings (aka Waffenamts) with the Army in charge of the inspections/acceptance for small arms and bayonets etc. for all the service branches. The WaA stamp itself representing the Wehrmachtabnahme Amt (Armed Forces Inspection Office). Of course depending on the item and time period you can find some variables like companies that seem to have used both the letter codes and the R.B. Numbers etc. - but at the end of the day it's still a military marking on that sack. Not one for a political item controlled by the RZM. Best Regards, Fred

[Ron Weinand]

First of all, the Bowie Blade WKC HJ Knives are mid to late war and, as none of them that I have found from veterans or have seen, show any kind of wear or use and IMO and from veterans I have obtained mine from, never left the WKC Factory. The bag was what was found at the factory and was an add on from what can be determined.
On this paperwork, it is all under the HJ items listed for loss. Scabbard were more than likely a sub contracted item and not stored with blades and hilts.

[Frogprince]

First of all, the Bowie Blade WKC HJ Knives are mid to late war and, as none of them that I have found from veterans or have seen, show any kind of wear or use and IMO and from veterans I have obtained mine from, never left the WKC Factory. The bag was what was found at the factory and was an add on from what can be determined.
On this paperwork, it is all under the HJ items listed for loss. Scabbard were more than likely a sub contracted item and not stored with blades and hilts.

Ron, You are correct up to a point, the German military code on the bag does not belong to WKC, so it's just an add on. Maybe it’s because I started with German Lugers, but in the world of TR era weapons collecting the mid period is 1942-1943 with late being 1944-1945. The latest date for HJ knives I’ve seen is 1942 but I'm always willing to learn. Seeing is believing, so can you post any of the 1942 - 1945 dated mid to late HJ knives with the Bowie type blades that you mentioned for a close look (so that aspect of the discussion can be put to rest). As for what was stored with what: The destroyed list has completed HJ scabbards and parts on it (if I’m reading it correctly). The cover letter mentioning a destructive fire for the first items and the salvageable items in the second group in need of some immediate work if I read that part correctly (presumably water damaged). Regards, Fred

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

misanthrop,
I am sending you a PM with my email address.

I did the same after seeing the message of this member, but it is better misanthrop that you send the pictures to Serge as he is more up to date on the subject than me (despite we may both post your pics).

See You

Vince

[militarymania]

seems like my post of 7-4 has been misplaced,so I will post it again,,,For what it is worth, I bought 5 of these knives directly from the vet's hand back in the late 1970's or early 1980's. He said he got them out of the factory but didn't say which factory. I sold one to Tom Johnson & sold the rest over the years,,,I purchase this knife at the estate sale of Col John Kirby,who also happened to be friends with Adolf Galland, I also picked up some Galland memorabilia at the sale...opinions on this knife welcomed.

[Frogprince]

seems like my post of 7-4 has been misplaced,so I will post it again,,,For what it is worth, I bought 5 of these knives directly from the vet's hand back in the late 1970's or early 1980's. He said he got them out of the factory but didn't say which factory. I sold one to Tom Johnson & sold the rest over the years,,,I purchase this knife at the estate sale of Col John Kirby,who also happened to be friends with Adolf Galland, I also picked up some Galland memorabilia at the sale...opinions on this knife welcomed.

You've asked twice, so for the moment I will disregard all of the discussion and its arguments and tell you what I see. A new knife with some age and handling on it, I've seen a couple of these knives that look like something other than a Bakelite was used for the grips and they either warped or shrank from heat. So I don't know if this one has grips that have shrunk, or the hilt is oversized and is exposed in places as a result. I also think that it's really obvious that the riveting of the leather hanging strap for both the leather and the scabbard is significantly misaligned. And the grip rivets also seem to be somewhat misaligned. But with the available images which seem to be somewhat blurry it's hard to guess why. I've seen those that were better made, and those that are more poorly constructed than this one, so it's not the worst but closer to that end of the scale than some others. FP