Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[inimicus]

Hi garry! Welcome back to my rambunctious little soiree.

Puts one in mind of the scene from 'dr. Strangelove' where the russkie official and american general are having at each other deep down in the pentagon. 'till, noticing the fray, the american president scolds, 'gentlemen! Gentlemen! There will be no fighting here - this is the war room!'

garry, we well understand you've gathered round you a vast weight of material disputing the believers. Indeed, we truly appreciate the hard work (and time) in assembling, collating, cross-referencing and aggregating data in search of absolute, unimpeachable, crystalline proofs.

Clearly, efforts like you've undertaken can almost take on the nature of a crusade. And well done, too!

But after all you've kindly done in furtherance of this pin-worthy thread, i think we'd appreciate the following: Just one line, from just one, single period publication or document in your armamentarium - say, rzm-zeitschrift, hj/dj befehlsblatt, uniformenmarkt - stating that a) small knives will *not* be associated with the hj or dj, let alone have youth emblems affixed to scabbards; and b) that bdm girls are prohibited from wearing rally or camp knives or any edged weapon.


'the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and vice versa.'
- then-secdef rumsfeld, dod press briefing, 2002

;--)

okey dokey bobb. What would you need to see to be convinced that sufficient doubt exists on the period existence of the 'dj' and bdm' knives? Can you read german? Are you really interested?

I and others on this thread can show you regulation after regulation, period book after period book, photo after photo, rzm source literature, autobiographies, um, post-war chronicles, veteran accounts (german veterans). I could go on. I've got a whole library full of this dull stuff and it never mentions your pretty little knives let alone connects them to the hitler youth movement.

However, we could save ourselves a lot of time if you could ask your friends to provide you with just one piece of verifiable evidence from the period showing that these knives are what you and they say they are. Not a tall order i wouldn't have thought for a man of your experience and with the max connections you have? Unless of course 'belief' is indeed all you have?

It's not enough.

[Garry M.]

This isn't about me nor is it about my library or indeed you. It is about history. I need no praise and if I could do this anonymously I would

You see this as bickering. I see a misrepresentation of history and I see people being told something by you guys which you can't prove.


So, evidence against the period existence of the so-called 'DJ' and 'BdM' knives. What you are looking for for your first piece of evidence is an excerpt from a period regulation which says something like:

"I, the Reichsjugendführer have not and will never introduce a special knife for the Deutsches Jungvolk and for the BdM. Because I had no intention of introducing it I never felt it necessary to have the knife designed. If anyone now or in the future claims that I did authorise such knives you can tell them from me that they are big fibbers!"

See the absurdity in what you are requesting?

Now, I and others can show you regulations which describe the uniforms and equipment of both the BdM and the DJ in great detail. What would you say if they never, from 1933 to 1945, ever mention a knife (in the case of the BdM) and a 'Deutsches Jungvolk' knife in the case of the DJ?

I don't think we need to go further yet. I'd just like to hear your considered response to that first. You sold your knife as a DJ knife and so do the dealers. I'd just like to hear why you are so confident in the face of such overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[inimicus]

This isn't about me nor is it about my library or indeed you. It is about history. I need no praise

but don't reject it, surely?

and if I could do this anonymously I would

we're CERTAIN YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH PMs...

You see this as bickering.

- ok, 'spirited exchange of view,' then

I see a misrepresentation of history and I see people being told something by you guys which you can't prove.

- 'you guys' - wrong. I've made it quite clear throughout I'm agnostic. to quote me to me, I began this exercise by calling the topic 'controversial.' I'll thank you to bear this in mind. it's the inquiry that interests me as it seemingly does you. but we're slightly different: you sound aggrieved, as tho you'd been cheated. have you bought one of these, concluded or been told you'd erred and that it was fake, then been unable to get your $ back from the seller? if so, the passion you bring to the topic is perfectly understandable.

- 'misrepresentation of history' sounds perilously close to 'misrepresentation of a knife.' if you believe you've been cheated and can prove the case in court (that the item was fake, or the seller would not take it back), we'd all I'm sure urge you to seek legal redress; i.e., sue him. or, hey, even 'them' - all who have sold or do sell such knives. a little caution mt. however be wise, per a previous post re slander and libel law.


So, evidence against the period existence of the so-called 'DJ' and 'BdM' knives. What you are looking for for your first piece of evidence is an excerpt from a period regulation which says something like:

"I, the Reichsjugendführer have not and will never introduce a special knife for the Deutsches Jungvolk and for the BdM. Because I had no intention of introducing it I never felt it necessary to have the knife designed. If anyone now or in the future claims that I did authorise such knives you can tell them from me that they are big fibbers!"

See the absurdity in what you are requesting?

- hardly. period documentation is replete with countless cases where unofficial or small-volume items were discovered being worn or used (presumably including these knives), and future use officially proscribed. irish linen ss and sa brown shirts are one example where such 'corrections' are ordered. (thenceforth all shirts were to be cotton, I think HH's order states.)

Now, I and others can show you regulations which describe the uniforms and equipment of both the BdM and the DJ in great detail. What would you say if they never, from 1933 to 1945, ever mention a knife (in the case of the BdM) and a 'Deutsches Jungvolk' knife in the case of the DJ?

I'd say two things. one, it's a fair bet the order barring small knives, per my example above, has simply not surfaced to date. (interesting docs keep turning up, and will until the masses of things from ex-sov/ex-ddr archives are waded thru).

two, I'd say that introducing absolutes like you did with the r.j.f. above doesn't strengthen your case. one look at the very frequent, not to say bewildering changes in german police regs year to year - even month to month - (see angolia) shows the real 'absurdity' of stipulating 'always' and 'never.'

(see again rummy's quote from 2002 - equally applicable to both sides here.)

I don't think we need to go further yet. I'd just like to hear your considered response to that first. You sold your knife as a DJ knife

I sold my knife to a 'believer'.

and so do the dealers.

I'd just like to hear why you are so confident in the face of such overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

- 'so confident?' there you go again! I'm not confident either way, so kindly stop portraying me in this light. thank yoiu.

[Frogprince]

While I’m still in the process of preparing a “slide show” of some of the different variations of the fakes created using the so-called “BDM” knifes, here is a preview of one item which is the thread starter. With the bozo who put this particular example together not having much luck getting the emblem straight. FP

[Garry M.]

- 'so confident?' there you go again! I'm not confident either way, so kindly stop portraying me in this light. thank yoiu.

Yes, I understand that you are not confident.

I can't quote your complete post because the formatting was incorrect but an answer follows:

##################################################

I'm not soliciting praise. That doesn't interest me. You offered it.

You are getting personal now so I will quickly address the issues you raise:

What would be the point in discussing this through PM? And with whom? With you? You have no knowledge to contribute. I'm sorry but you patently haven't.

You're not 'agnostic'. You opened the discussion and then sold the knife to your 'believer'. Clearly the knife isn't controversial enough for you yet.

On the matter of my ownership of one of these knives I would thank you to not put words into my mouth and to stop second-guessing my motives. I don't know you, you don't know me. Let's just stick to the knives. In answer to your question: no, of course I haven't bought one of these knives. I think that they are humped-up trash.

You asked for evidence of an order which showed that the BDM and DJ did not have a special knife exclusive to their organisations as some dealers and dealer/authors would have the reader believe. I pointed out to you that this would be impossible. Why would someone order something not to be done if he had no intention of doing it in the first place? You then drifted away and started talking about period documentation showing various items being worn or used. Yes, that is called evidence. You are talking about things which existed during the period and which were documented. The knives cannot be shown to have existed during the period.

I'm not familiar with police regs but yes, all regulations were updated and sometimes revised. Are you assuming that I have found a random regulation pertaining to knives in the Hitler Youth and that I am applying it to the whole period? Yes, that would be careless and stupid. Which is why I didn't choose that option. I'm looking at sources ranging from very early to very late. None of them mention your knife.

So if I understand you correctly your basis for thinking that these knives are what the dealers and some authors say they are is that people you like/respect say that they are okay and that you expect some paperwork to turn up some day which will prove that there was a special issued knife for both the DJ and BDM? You do realise that you are effectively sweeping aside all other evidence NOW available in favour of of some unscientific opinions and a phantom? Interesting.

Let's not continue this discussion. I accept that you don't see merit in my approach. I'll bet you don't buy another one of these knives though...

[inimicus]

hi garry and thanks. I absolutely see merit in your analytical 'prove it' approach, and have thanked you several times for your inputs. I find them thoughtful and bracing.

sorry about seeming to make things personal, viz., whether you were an aggrieved party; glad you weren't. but after all you referred to the 'absurdity' of *my* approach, which was arguably quite personal. fair is fair.

look, to repeat, again, what I've pointed out to very little effect: I don't know the Truth, and sold the knife on the 'stand WITH this discussion thread in the ad as a caveat. forewarned is forearmed, nie? more than that I could not do. the buyer's a believer and, like you, entitled to his view of what constitutes truth, genuineness or lack of same. david

[Garry M.]

Hi David,

You have been fair with the knife. I appreciate that.

Many thanks for the discussion.

Garry

[inimicus]

thanks loads, fred. sure appears inculpatory viewed at this angle.

how could worksmanship of this low order have been been possible in the plu-perfect, ruthlessly efficient IIId reich? the answer is that we all know that it was possible, 'coz we've seen examples - albeit seldom.

I reckon believers would argue the sloppiness doesn't diminish but bolsters their argument. I imagine them saying the knives were shelved pending destruction which for various reasons never happened; or saved as examples of crap work to show round the shops. but then in any case GIs found them abandoned nach kriegsende.

as a working hypothesis, I've seen worse.

anyway, please send more; definitely look forward to the slide show.

best,
david

While I’m still in the process of preparing a “slide show” of some of the different variations of the fakes created using the so-called “BDM” knifes, here is a preview of one item which is the thread starter. With the bozo who put this particular example together not having much luck getting the emblem straight. FP

[inimicus]

more than welcome, garry. and again, I am genuinely thankful for all you've put in here. and keep giving them (and me!) hell when you think it's needed.

nobody said this stuff was easy. it does concentrate the mind, though, helping ensure retention.

stay well, and good hunting,

dw

Hi David,

You have been fair with the knife. I appreciate that.

Many thanks for the discussion.

Garry

[Frogprince]

thanks loads, fred. sure appears inculpatory viewed at this angle. how could worksmanship of this low order have been been possible in the plu-perfect, ruthlessly efficient IIId reich? the answer is that we all know that it was possible, 'coz we've seen examples - albeit seldom. I reckon believers would argue the sloppiness doesn't diminish but bolsters their argument. I imagine them saying the knives were shelved pending destruction which for various reasons never happened; or saved as examples of crap work to show round the shops. but then in any case GIs found them abandoned nach kriegsende. as a working hypothesis, I've seen worse. anyway, please send more; definitely look forward to the slide show. best, david

David, I have to admire your upbeat attitude. Always smelling the roses - while sidestepping the fertilizer that is sometimes around them. So now we have the mental picture of fearful/cowering workers (who may even have been from the camps(?). Who in the darkness were struggling to make their quota of “DJ” knife conversions while the B 17’s and Lancaster’s droned on overhead. Whose sloppy work, and the wasting of precious resources, (like already finished knives) would not have boded well for them. With in the same picture - that the Germans in wartime never issued any less than perfectly made weapons or gear. It had to be perfect or it stayed on the shelves!! Right??? Which sort of tells me that you might not be that well versed in what actually went on in the manufacturing sector in Germany before or during the war. Or what actual wartime period items look like - as it varies.

The circumstances of which would have absolutely no bearing on any prewar “Olympic” (BDM-style) knives if they were made in peacetime before the Olympics. Right?? And what year was that??

As I’m not yet close to completing my hard drive(s) searching, selecting, and any photo orientation work (to make it easier to see) - in lieu of that here is a hint: In one of TMJ’s books he discusses the RZM “Department of Ordnance”. He also pictures an HJ knife with military style proofs/Waffenamts along with some discussion. So when I later tracked it down, I found that the indicated HWaA Inspectorate was not even in Germany. My point? There is no question that TMJ has done a lot of good for collecting. But with the good, sometimes there has also been some fertilizer from multiple sources (from others besides TMJ) which has been distributed into the "collecting experience". Regards, Fred

[inimicus]

thanks, fred. in fact I know but little about germany's manufacturing sector, per se, or machine tools and dies, lathes, sheet metal cutters, duralloys, metallurgical technology and such.

or for that matter when any 'smalls' were made, with or w/o embellished blades etc. (at least a few 'plains' existed in the period, usage unknown - correct?)

I do know that none of us is right 100% of the time. indeed no one is stupider than the man who thinks he knows everything.

I was basically hoping experts would, as it were, turn up light the brightness of the lamp of knowledge and so provoke civil discourse here; plus maybe sell my knife if that looked feasible!

in addition to the pre-45 question writ large, tho, I'm left curious about sourcing. given that some major dealers' reps (and unavoidably, their goods) now are perhaps forever tainted on account of having sold these things, where can non-believers turn to buy ... anything?

I mean, are there dealers out there who haven't and won't sell the knives? and if so, are they deemed fertilizer-free in field equip., uniforms, headgear, insignia and other categories? I just wonder how all this is parsed out. these aren't debate points; just rhetorical Qs., me thinking out loud.....

anyhow, thanks again for all comments and all the many views my thread has attracted. dw

[BobI]

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Bob

[Frogprince]

I think among those of us that know these are real know they did not have the button added at the factory. That is why the rivet was ground to release the runners so the pins would fit. .................... Bob

Obviously I can’t speak for everyone. But I think that at a minimum, a great majority of those who do not believe in them also think that the buttons were added post manufacture to already completely finished knives. And while you do have one with a ground rivet. You also have one with a steel dome head rivet with elongated (?) round holes. And what may be some alignment issues of another kind? How does that factor into the 'believer' scenario? Fred

[RussellM]

Fred, don't forget the scabbard with 'RZM' stamped on it. According to the dealer who sold it, the diamond 'fell off', revealing the stamp beneath where the diamond was attached! I have a photo of it somewhere.

You've got to ask yourself, why on earth would a manufacturer place an RZM stamp on a scabbard only to be covered with the diamond? And no maker number or anything else, just 'RZM'.

So, this is actually very interesting for you believers - if this one was legitimate as the dealer had claimed, there must be a record of some sort in RZM regulations because it is stamped.

That's a big clue for you believers!

Bob, Ron, do you have any thoughts on that one you can share with us?

Regards

Russ

[GaryMJ]

I have 2 of these, one is beaten up with the HJ diamond missing revealing the scabbard holes, I can take some pics if useful to anyone. I can't post the pics, but I can forward to anyone interested...

Red