Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[M Wipf]

In my original post on #473
I posted that the JR picture was a Just a bad Joke..
But I deleted it to play along with the farce...

I think the three pictures above are quite humorous and well executed.

They send a valuable message ..

Mike

[Mac 66]

Basically this thread boils down to dealers who want to believe these little knifes are genuine period "DJ knifes" & want to sell them against collectors who do not believe them to be ever produced for USE of the DJ or BDM, so its tit for tat till we all drop dead unless some strong period evidence turns up to prove otherwise, what i would really like to know is what time period were they actually manufactured, ?


No more bullsh#t

[Frogprince]

Basically this thread boils down to dealers who want to believe these little knifes are genuine period "DJ knifes" & want to sell them against collectors who do not believe them to be ever produced for USE of the DJ or BDM, so its tit for tat till we all drop dead unless some strong period evidence turns up to prove otherwise, what i would really like to know is what time period were they actually manufactured, ?


No more bullsh#t

Mac, Here is a fact based answer:

................ FYI there was a order placed post war for 600 of these small HJ (Style) size knife.. that went to U.S. buyer.. (source ?? Solingen Factory owner)...............

Was it the only order placed, or is it just the only one that has been found? And probably not known to those who do or did not also collect weapons, the facts about the transition in Solingen and elsewhere to the reddish plastics from 1943 onward stand on its own with too many real world items to seriously question their existence. A different analysis from another source regarding TR production and aluminum, not only moving the date earlier, but also increasing the allocations for aircraft to 80%.

And because pictures it seems might be a better way to show reality versus fantasy, here is a DJ aged child being awarded an Iron Cross. My point being that some of the arguments for the knives such as 'late, end of war, late issued variant, effort by the NSDAP to provide knives to the HJ'....... etc. etc. seems to be out of touch with what was happening in and to Germany from the mid and especially the late period. FP

[damasco]

A small review.
Klass did make this small style knife without HJ insignia by at least 1937 (if not before).
As it is in a dated 1937 catalog..
Solingen companies were actively selling other style knives to the HJ that were not official .. Shown in period publications..
Company stock damage report posted here on forum.. How ever it seems to get lost in translation
No of course there was stock left over after the war and this complicates the issue as it was sold off etc....
The only issue is when did the HJ style insignia show up....
Was this done during the late 30s early 40s or is this all a 1946 and after thing??
I know this is not a original post but I can tell you they did make these small style HJ without insignia knives during the 30s.
So far we have (vet. buys, old collections etc.. ) on these with insignia on scabbard ...... I have no stake in this as I do not collect HJ style knives...
And I do believe the sources..
You must remember Solingen companies wanted to sell product...
So maybe when that original picture does show-up it will be torn to shreds...
Or hopefully more paperwork will solve this issue for some..
Maybe it will show-up in a period Xmas catalog... I'm serious...
There is so much hiding out there yet that has not surfaced or never will..

[Frogprince]

A small review.
Klass did make this small style knife without HJ insignia by at least 1937 (if not before).
As it is in a dated 1937 catalog..
Solingen companies were actively selling other style knives to the HJ that were not official .. Shown in period publications..
Company stock damage report posted here on forum.. How ever it seems to get lost in translation
No of course there was stock left over after the war and this complicates the issue as it was sold off etc....
The only issue is when did the HJ style insignia show up....
Was this done during the late 30s early 40s or is this all a 1946 and after thing??
I know this is not a original post but I can tell you they did make these small style HJ without insignia knives during the 30s.
So far we have (vet. buys, old collections etc.. ) on these with insignia on scabbard ...... I have no stake in this as I do not collect HJ style knives...
And I do believe the sources..
You must remember Solingen companies wanted to sell product...
So maybe when that original picture does show-up it will be torn to shreds...
Or hopefully more paperwork will solve this issue for some..
Maybe it will show-up in a period Xmas catalog... I'm serious...
There is so much hiding out there yet that has not surfaced or never will..

RE: Klaas did make a small Bowie type knife in the 1930’s with no emblem, and both those and the 1941/42 Brannik contract knives have iron/steel hilts. The Brannik knives themselves having their emblem in the grip similar to the HJ/DJ knives.

The stock damage report is and was taken at face value but it only had “HJ Klingen Klein” listed in the damaged portion. No “Klein” scabbards and no “Klein” hilts, or grip scales, whereas above it lists both completed HJ scabbards and HJ parts etc. that were destroyed. There is some evidence that Eickhorn reworked non-milspec bayonets so could that be what it was referring to? Who knows? And no mention of a Bowie style blade. There is also zero known period documentation (regulations that were widely distributed) for a much smaller size knife, or a Bowie type point after the RZM took control. All of the documentation shows a conventional HJ type blade. Noting that the RZM did sometimes adjust the specifications to accommodate authorized changes in the way the HJ/DJ knives were made - something that is seen in known period HJ/DJ knives that corresponds to the documentation. In addition to some facts on the military side that non-collectors sometimes don’t seem to have a good understanding of, the RZM was not a charity. It was backed up by law and helped fund the NSDAP and its activities.

Earlier I posted some very obvious postwar modified examples of the Bowie style anonymous maker small aluminum hilted knives that were freshly drilled to install the emblems. Which of course I can repost here if needed. Regards, FP

[damasco]

Yes, I get it.. working with what you know...


Maybe this has been covered as I do not watch the forum religiously but since you brought up other countries...
Has anyone posted on the forum a Greek youth leader dagger made in the late 30s And if not why not??
As I said it may have been posted on the forum already...

[damasco]

Yes, I get it.. working with what you know...


Maybe this has been covered as I do not watch the forum religiously but since you brought up other countries...
Has anyone posted on the forum a Greek youth leader dagger made in the late 30s And if not why not??
As I said it may have been posted on the forum already...



Here is a fly in the ointment..
What about the blades for the Dutch youth knives Eickhorn made ??
Just trying to get everybody thinking...
Regards: James

[Ron Weinand]

Dutch Youth Knives are not "HJ" as written on the loss report.

[Serge M.]

Examples shown in 1937 Klaas Catalog.
Numerous examples purchased back-in-the-day, from vets at motel buys.
Numerous bags with DJ designation encountered from different companies.
And the great 1944 Damage/Loss report thankfully provided by Damasco, calling small knives.

I've learned in this hobby that sometimes you don't get all the answers that will be satisfactory as 'proof' to all. Sometimes you just need to go by your own gut and experience.

Glad we have a good debate here now, without all the emotionality. That doesn't mean we have to all agree, as different opinions are always welcome, just respectfully. Just no 10 rounds In the Cage-Suspended- Anything Goes- *** style.

OK, Ding-Ding. Next round-

About that Greek Youth Leader .....

The Master Editor got me too. - HA !

[Frogprince]

Yes, I get it.. working with what you know...


Maybe this has been covered as I do not watch the forum religiously but since you brought up other countries...
Has anyone posted on the forum a Greek youth leader dagger made in the late 30s And if not why not??
As I said it may have been posted on the forum already...



Here is a fly in the ointment..
What about the blades for the Dutch youth knives Eickhorn made ??
Just trying to get everybody thinking...
Regards: James

James, Not really one of my main interests, the iron/steel hilted Brannik knives by Klaas became an item of interest because there were conflicting accounts about them, with some stating that they were made in the 1930’s. Which turned out to be not true, it was 1941/42.

The Germans had some captured Greek weapons and issued unique identifiers for them, but beyond that you must be the expert on Greek daggers because I don’t remember ever hearing about one until now,

As for the knives made for the Dutch NJS by Eickhorn the ones I’ve seen have plated handles. FP

[BobI]

As a side not, I have heard from dealers they now can sell these knives and people will buy them. I guess that means people have enough faith to put there money into them.
But of course there are some who feel that TTW and TJ placed hundreds of these knives in veterans and family of veterans hands around the country and perhaps even world to fool collectors. Sometimes brainwashing them to believe stories of how they acquired them during the war. Yes, that makes total sense to me
Bob
It would also seem there is more evidense to support their existance then not but, there are some who will never admit they are wrong. Thank God, the worse of them are no longer posting

[Frogprince]

As a side not, I have heard from dealers they now can sell these knives and people will buy them. I guess that means people have enough faith to put there money into them.
But of course there are some who feel that TTW and TJ placed hundreds of these knives in veterans and family of veterans hands around the country and perhaps even world to fool collectors. Sometimes brainwashing them to believe stories of how they acquired them during the war. Yes, that makes total sense to me
Bob
It would also seem there is more evidense to support their existance then not but, there are some who will never admit they are wrong. Thank God, the worse of them are no longer posting

Bob, If someone is in the position of owning one, how does he tell whether or not it is one of the ones from the at least 600 that we know were imported from Germany and sold to a U.S. buyer after the war (post # 379). Is there a secret marking underneath the grips?? FP

.................. FYI there was a order placed post war for 600 of these small HJ (Style) size knife.. that went to U.S. buyer.. (source ?? Solingen Factory owner)....................

[Mac 66]

[QUOTE=BobI;7871058]As a side not, I have heard from dealers they now can sell these knives and people will buy them. I guess that means people have enough faith to put there money into them.



Really ?, i guess you can start selling yer stash Bob


But remember they cannot be sold as DJ or BDM knifes

[GaryMJ]

For what it’s worth... I still have one of these which came out of an old Vet's estate with some other common German stuff, medals, badges, etc, so I believe it’s an old knife, but can’t attest to it being WW2 vintage, it’s possible either way I guess.

I also have a wrecked knife which is more typical with the ground-off rivet and double runners and has clearly been used to destruction, with a missing badge. You can see that the drilling also occurred after the scabbard was painted.

I’ve had a few of these over the years, to be honest I don’t know what to make of these, there’s pros & cons in both arguments, but I am certain they are old, it’s just HOW old I'm not a dealer, so I couldn't care less one way or the other from a collecting perspective, but I find it hard to believe these are contemporary fakes. Many appear to have been bought from Vets, surely that carries some weight, they can't all be lying? I have pics of both if anyone's interested.

Red

[Serge M.]

Bob, If someone is in the position of owning one, how does he tell whether or not it is one of the ones from the at least 600 that we know were imported from Germany and sold to a U.S. buyer after the war (post # 379). Is there a secret marking underneath the grips?? FP

Fred, I'm not answering for Bob, just showing what looks like to me a late period constructed HJ style scabbard (twin steel runners), with perhaps post war added leather. stamped 'GERMANY'.
Any reason why the post-war DJ knifes could avoid this requirement for export ?

.