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    #1

    Gold Heer Dagger

    I know there are various opinions on these. This one is maker marked by Krebs, oval mark.
    It is not yellowed laquer, though difficult to show, it is a distinct gold wash. I have included a standard dagger hoping to show the difference.
    The gold finish on the zink guard is similar to, and has faded in the same fashion seen on zink badges. Aceton will not affect the finish. The finish on the pommel has aged, but survived better than the guard. The scabbard shows some freckling, but retains most of the gold wash. It appears to be protected by a laquer, similar to that sometimes seen on the silver daggers.
    I would appreciate any thoughts on this dagger, I am keeping an open mind on this one.
    Wolfgang
    Attached Files
    Last edited by wolfeknives; 01-13-2012, 02:29 PM.
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    #2
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      #3
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        #4
        Wolfgang it certainly looks convincing from the pictures. I do find it strange though that a CJ Krebs has an Eickhorn crossguard ? never seen that combo before.

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          #5
          Wolfgang, Although some have a hard time accepting it, the gold washed Army daggers have been around since forever. They have been noted in period publications as for Officer of General Rank in gold for the Army dagger. I believe in 1940 (I don't have it in file). Hangers for these are also finished in a gold wash.

          Member 'notaguru' is more familiar with these than I and has info on the grip wire wrap. Perhaps he will chime in.

          Nice example. Thanks for sharing.


          -wagner-

          Comment

            #6
            In the world of corrosion control for metals, a gold or golden colored zinc chromate has been around since before WW II to protect zinc from a particular type of corrosion. Being seen on various (both Army and Luftwaffe) late zinc dagger parts from multiple makers, to include zinc plated steel scabbards which were then zinc phosphated a uniform matt gray.

            Some of what I find interesting with this dagger is that the crossguard and pommel seem to be duller and more toned. Whereas the collar and scabbard have a brighter/glossier appearance that is more consistent with gold plating. And there is also the matter of the cratering on one of the bands which is consistent with encapsulated corrosion, and a couple of dings on the pommel with what looks like an undamaged finish. Maybe it’s just the lighting playing tricks - but that is what I seem to be seeing.

            PS: I forgot to mention that while the zinc chromate layer bonded fairly well to the zinc or zinc plating, after time the same cannot be said for the outermost zinc phosphate layer. Which even in this much later era for metal finishers can still cause problems if not properly applied. FP
            Last edited by Frogprince; 01-13-2012, 06:38 PM.

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              #7
              well i just could not help my self on this one. I had a gold wash on a walk in years ago at a show come to my table I looked at it along time and payed a fair price for an heer dagger not an general dagger the hanger were also gold plate and very orante. Is it a general yes in my mind but the promblem lies out there on the internet not one person will chime in and say yes but offer it at a heer price and boom it sells like a hot cake. I would have to pull the file on this one i do not rember the maker .But I can say it is in my vault .By the way I like this one too.

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                #8
                OK, I had both a Gold Washed Army by Eickhorn and a Wire Wrapped by Klaas.
                I bought the Gold Washed Army from one of the bigger dealers for a princely sum. I was never really comfortable with it and sold it a few years later at a slight loss.
                I did find a Wire Wrapped Army by Klaas in '83. While doing my research on it and was able to find only 4 others. My research was accepetd by the top dealer at the time and the dagger was later included in his reference book. I sold this dagger to a very knowledgable collector who kept it for several years. Today it is in an advanced collection, along with the research. There are some who doubt the originality of such a grip. I myself don't care, I was happy with it and wish I still owned it.
                As I said, when I was researching mine, I could only find 4 others. Oddly, all 5 had the same type of wire wrapping. Today, I can find at least one Wire Wrapped Army at every show I go to, with every type of wire possible.

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                  #9
                  Looks like a general officer to me .

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                    #10
                    For comparison purposes, while the original 2008 discussion and its data seems to have disappeared. Here is a link to a briefer later discussion with examples from some of the different makers that used zinc chromate. FP

                    http://forum.germandaggers.com/ubbth...=254879&page=1

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                      #11
                      Interesting Heer to look at! I agree with Tom(WW2 collector) This is a Eick guard and I believe ALL the fittings and scabbard are Eick produced. Only thing that strays from Eickhorn doctrin is the flush single scabbard screw versus the usual proud larger single screw. Have not seem Krebs Heers mated to these type fittings. Neat to see the triple wire wrapped grip. Can't say I ever had or even held a gold washed example before so I can't comment on that (though I have seen pics of other Eicks of this era gold washed) Could it be a blade change due to poor conditioned Eick blade along the way??...look forward to seeing further comments! Kevin.

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                        #12
                        I usually collect only one good example of each dagger (SS & SA are exceptions). Unfortunately I fell in love with the Heer daggers a few month's ago. I have collected a few, but still have a great deal to learn about them, so I am open to all discussion of this dagger. Here are my observations:
                        The Krebs daggers seem to be relatively scarce, but all examples I have found use one of the generic guards, making this unusual. I agree that all components seem to match the Eickhorn daggers, leaving the possibility that the blade was switched out.
                        I am also aware that the wire wrapped grips accepted by most are Klaas, with the distinctive wire. Other advanced collectors I have corresponded with feel that Eickhorn may have produced some as well. However The wire on this dagger is in fact different from either.
                        The gold finish is not zink chromate. I have owned a number of Luft daggers, and the finish on this dagger in no way resembles the gold seen those daggers. It does however match the gold finish seen on many war badges. As mentioned in my first post, the gold finish is protected bt a thin, aged layer of laquer.
                        The corrosion around and on the scabbard bands matches that seen on the hinges catches of gold badges as well.
                        I have examined the dings on the pommel with my microscope. Some of these have displaced the base material, leaving the gold color in tact, but show cracking around the perimeter of the ding as expected. In a few spots the finish has been abraded. It is very difficult to show the actual color in a photograph, but all components show an even toning. The ferrule is slightly lighter and more polished, likely due to a difference in materials. This is also seen in some of the standard silver daggers at times, I believe.

                        Attached is a photo of the set.
                        Attached Files

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                          #13
                          There were over 3000 German Generals in Hitler's army during WWII. Where are all the gold daggers ???

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by JR. View Post
                            There were over 3000 German Generals in Hitler's army during WWII. Where are all the gold daggers ???
                            Ditto that.

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                              #15
                              Good question JR, maybe still with the families of these Generals?

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