SS Oddity

[Serge M.]

>> Wags,
Do you have any pics of factory protection dagger?<<

Rajko,
The Werkshutz dagger is another very rare dagger not known by most collectors.
Unfortunately I don't have one. A close friend of mine missed one a few years ago. There is a photo of one in Johnson's books. Think RLB with different grip insignia, an eagle spreading his protective wings over a factory underneath. - mega cool.
I will post when I find the image.

The officer that would wear the dagger would also wear this shoulder patch.



-wagner-

[WW22]

Probably done in the 50's or 60's by someone who thought the shield looked cooler than the eagle. Pretty easy to see where the top portion of the wood was hacked a bit too much to get the shield to fit, and it also appears off center from the spline of the grip. Hard to tell for sure from the pics, but the sides of the shield look to be touched up with black paint.
If there is any original Solingen photo archive material concerning non standard variants, that should be posted or inserted into a book, instead of just referring to it.
Reference to documentation is really worthless without sources - Particularly in a field as wide open to skepticism as TR collecting.

I think its neat, but would never accept it as a period variant. The odds that it is a post war modified piece are nearly overwhelming and, as always, it is up to the proponents to prove otherwise [though I realize you do not, and cannot, intend to do this].

[Serge M.]

I think its neat, but would never accept it as a period variant. The odds that it is a post war modified piece are nearly overwhelming and, as always, it is up to the proponents to prove otherwise [though I realize you do not, and cannot, intend to do this].

I have stated already that I am not trying to prove anything to anybody. I can't prove this was done by the SS man or by some G.I post war or a gum-shoe gun show guy of the 1970's- I am just pointing out possibilities. To open collectors visions of possibilities.

The image from Johnson's archive- what's your opinion on what that is?

-wagner-

[Serge M.]

Very interesting! I especially like the 2nd posts Solingen photo(from TJ book)...those runes in the Swas: I have seen such a runic pattern somewhere before...Odal, Inguz and Oss.. I think from a pre nsdap group . Have to think about this.

Also I agree there is a lot unknown about these daggers. I am investigating some aspects of SS daggers on my own right now.

Good going there Michael.
I agree there is a lot that is unknown about these daggers.
There also have been rumors over the years that there were secret compartmentalized groups within the SS that were not even known to many SS members. The Vril for example and others. - story for another time.

-wagner-

[WW22]

I have stated already that I am not trying to prove anything to anybody. I can't prove this was done by the SS man or by some G.I post war or a gum-shoe gun show guy of the 1970's- I am just pointing out possibilities. To open collectors visions of possibilities.

The image from Johnson's archive- what's your opinion on what that is?

-wagner-

I know wags, I realize its not your intention to do this, and I do thank you for sharing what is in any case an interesting piece.
My opinion of the Johnson photo is like I said - Without documentation on where it came from, other than "It came from Solingen archives, I swear!", makes it suspect.
Why wouldn't he have photographed the original documentation that he claims to have access to ?
If it is legit, it is obviously highly unusual, the crossed swords in that position seem more Arabic than anything.

[Serge M.]

Wags,
Do you have any pics of factory protection dagger?
I never even heard of that one. I would like to see it and learn something new.
Regards Rajko

Rajko, You have an open mind...you will go places in this hobby. As Paul says: 'Never say Never'. On the other hand one must also use the term president Reagan used: 'Trust but Verify'. However on a rare item who you going to verify with?

Here's the Werkluftschutz dagger as shown in Tommy Johnson's Vol. 8, pg 77.
That had to be one tough job trying to protect your factory from Allied bombers.

If you find one of these call me as nobody else will want it since the emblem could easily be applied post-war.

-wagner-

[rajko84]

Thank you very much Wags for taking time to find the pics.
Regards Rajko

Rajko, You have an open mind...you will go places in this hobby. As Paul says: 'Never say Never'. On the other hand one must also use the term president Reagan used: 'Trust but Verify'. However on a rare item who you going to verify with?

Here's the Werkluftschutz dagger as shown in Tommy Johnson's Vol. 8, pg 77.
That had to be one tough job trying to protect your factory from Allied bombers.

If you find one of these call me as nobody else will want it since the emblem could easily be applied post-war.

-wagner-

[Frogprince]

Look what Tommy Johnson found in a Solingen photo archive. (Image taken from T.J's Collecting Edged weapons books) ............ If you saw today that SS dagger that is in the Johnson Solingen archive, would you think that is fake? You think that was perhaps the only one? If you believe that is real then why was only that one allowed to be made? ............

I’m sorry that I am going to have to disagree to this extent. In the image posted (# 2 in the thread) I see some areas that look questionable. With one of the lessons I learned from the SA Birdshead thread being that I had to look more closely at documentation past and present. I found the dagger on page 274 of TMJ Vol II, so I got out a handheld magnifier to study the photo as closely as possible.

What I saw was this: * The crossguard is not flush with the mouthpiece (there is a visible gap on the right side). * The crossguard also looks like it has at least two pockmarks (or small dings), with a possible smaller third one to the right. * The upper crossguard overlaps the wood which seems to have shrunk. * There is what looks like at least one dent is in the grip. * The carrying rings seems to have two worn areas, along with a few other areas of possible concern. * But the worst IMO is that the grip emblem is way off center - and not by what I consider a small amount.

Everyone can have their own opinion if some fakery has taken place or not. But from what I am seeing, the picture in the book is a lot closer to one of those phony Atwood fakes/photos. Where Atwood used items of varying quality that he already had in his possession - instead of legitimate period photos. Which brings up another additional factor. The fact that one or more photos are (or were) in the possession of TMJ, suggests a connection at some level for Atwood's physical assets. Because TMJ used Atwood’s photo to “authenticate” the SA Birdshead dagger in a (later) book - with the same photo already published in Atwood’s book years earlier. FP