Craig Gottlieb-SA Birdshead Dagger

[F. J. Stephens]

Fire gilding

Fire gilting must have still been in practice during the TR. For example, the WKC firm listed fire gilting as an option at extra cost in the 1939 catalog. The difference in price was substantial. Double electroplating a sword hilt was RM 5.-, fire gilting the hilt was RM 15.-.

Yes, Cogwheel, you are correct about this.

The point I was trying to make is that "Fire Gilding" places a much thicker level of gold finish to the blade (or other metal portion) - because it cannot be controlled as effectively as electro-plating. Yet the electro plating technique can equally duplicate the same density of gold placement as the "fire-gilding" technique - if given long enough - and it could also perform this in whatever grade of gold was required : - 9 karat, 12, 14, 18, 24 ? ? ?

The point I was making here is that Mr. Weinand was absolutely "specific" - perhaps even "adament" to the point of challenge - that the piece he examined was fire-gilded.

I find no fault with this - and Ron is an able and seasoned researcher - so I have just simply asked: Ron Weinand - How can you visually tell whether or not a piece is "fire-gilded" or "electro-plated". There was a difference in price, so there must have been a difference in result? Would you please be gracious enough to share this exclusive knowledge with us?

Frederick J. Stephens

[schönbeck]

fascinating and yet a little unbelievable. The method was more or less banned here in Sweden around 1900 due to the very unhealthy mercury.

Electroplating has been around for centuries but the modern was introduced around 1840 if I don't remember wrong.

They must had a reason for using it even in the 40's.

I can ask a jeweller if he knows how to tell the difference.

[cogwheel]

Frederick Stephens: You have brought up the question of how can fire gitling be recognized once before. And since then everytime I look at a navy dagger that question goes through my mind. The inherent problem is that one has to know in a comparison which of the objects under scrutiny is actually fire gilted.

The book 'Uniformen der Nationalen Volksarmee der DDR' states (page 109) that the dagger fittings of the dress daggers for general officers and admirals were 'feuervergoldet' (fire gilted). So I compared the DDR navy dagger for officers with the admirals dagger but I could not detect any difference in any respect. Perhaps the term 'feuervergoldet' is being used loosely and actually just meaning gold plated.

[Jo Rivett]

Perhaps the term 'feuervergoldet' is being used loosely and actually just meaning gold plated.

Cogwheel, thats the best post i`ve read all week. The differences between the two would be a subject all on their own. No forgetting to take the base metals into consideration with relation to how the finish would react to time, and various storage or useage conditions. etc etc etc

[Ed.Anderson,Jr.]

FYI, Fire gilding tarnishes gold plating does not.
Regards, Ed.

[Frogprince]

Yes and no. It's the copper added as a hardening agent that can tarnish. There is more involved. FP

[schönbeck]

The Fire g. base is just mercury and Gold.

Wax and ie verdigris, copperscales, borax are then mixed and burnt on the surface to get right Gold color.

[Frogprince]

This topic just gets better and more interesting the longer it goes on. Maybe somebody can prove me wrong. But I think that I’ve located the “SA Birdshead” dagger that the late Chip Gambino owned. With not only some better quality closeups, but an image that shows a plain carbon steel blade with the SA motto. And another that shows what looks like an etched trademark. It looks to me like somebody either: 1) Ran out of blades when it was first manufactured or 2) Removed the original blade that came with it, so the deception would not be as easily detected. With the original blade possibly used for another as yet undiscovered fake. With the latter IMO being more likely than just running out of blades. FP

With this earlier statement in his online sales brochure for the "silver" dagger now making more sense:

"All bore damascus blades, and all bore raised gilted inscriptions (with one exception discovered by Tom Johnson)."

http://www.worlddaggers.com/engine/i...Filter=Gallery

[Sgt. Steiner]

FP
This is better than History Detectives. Too bad an arrest can't be made. Well done.

[Frogprince]

Described in the book - World war II German War Booty Volume V , page 129 that was posted earlier as:

“Pictured is an ultra-rare cased Special SA Presentation Dagger by Carl Eickhorn that was found at the firm in Solingen. The combined dagger and case set evidently was never presented, as the original Eickhorn control tag is still attached. Complete details on this rare dagger dagger are available on pages 44 and 45 of Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich, Volume I.”

To which Frederick J. Stephens in his excellent analysis responded:

The trademark on these pieces (the small, narrow oval – as opposed to the more bulbous oval of the earlier Eickhorn period) is suggestive of a period of manufacture from 1934 – to early 1936; yet the Eickhorn tag on the Gambino piece (entry 291, page 20 of this thread) is clearly that of the 1936-41 period style (and in this particular case.................

A point that was well made and now we know the reason why. The faker (or fakers) who put the “Gambino” dagger together (perhaps with a high end buyer already in mind(?). To some extent knew what they had to do in order to “get over” on the intended customer. With the tag now seen to be matching up to the blade's logo. Which is a piece of the puzzle that we did not have earlier. FP

[TxGauleiter]

"As one of the most elusive dagger types produced during the Third Reich period, this style dagger was a product of the Eickhorn company. Although little is known about the purpose of the dagger, it is assumed, based upon the 2 or 3 that are known to exist, that it was a style produced for presentation in a number of circumstances. To date, several examples in gold, bearing the SA rune on the quillion block, have surfaced, and one additional piece has surfaced with DAF/NSBO logos present. All bore damascus blades , and all bore raised gilted inscriptions (with one exception discovered by Tom Johnson). This particular piece surfaced in Nevada several years ago, with a heavily damaged blade and scabbard leather. Jason Burmeister and I purchased it, and after restoration are pleased to offer this piece to the public. The blade is a "ladder" type damascus, and has been deeply cleaned (pitting is still visible from the deep rust). The tang is marked "Echt Damast" with the initials RH below it. Grip is ivory, and has a few age cracks. Fittings are nickel silver, with a silver finish over them. Fittings have NOT been restored. This is the only silver example known to exist, and the reason for the variation on these models is not known. This piece will be featured in Tom Wittmann's upcoming book on SA daggers, and is a once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire a very rare and desirable piece at a significant discount, due to the disclosed restoration. This piece comes with a copy of the Wittmann expertise (not pictured). Please contact me for further details."-Craig Gottlieb and Jason Burmeister

As of today, the dagger owned by Jason Burmeister and Craig Gottlieb is still on Craigs website and the description taken from the site and posted above has not been changed. It would appear that despite the overwhelming evidence of this being a postwar fabrication, Burmeister and Gottlieb are committed to the their path of claiming its real. Neither have come on here to set their story straight, clear things up, or acknowledge the mistake. (though both have been observed reading the posts)

Feel free to draw your own conclusion.

[mongobongo]

Well after two and a half hours, it was time well spent. Frederick your research is always in depth and spot on.

I personally think that it takes some guts to stand up and put a case forward as to what you know to be right, and then back it up with evidence.

You have a great "moral compass" and it is not swayed by $$$ signs.

I do hope that you get your new repro book finnished some time in the near future. I am sure that a lot of people would buy it for years to come. Some of these pieces going around financially are not just a case of loosing a bit of money more like a "burning at the stake" if you get hit with one.

[HOS Bandit]

An Hour and a Half that I can never get back..

I am a new member, and I wouldn't presume to throw my nascent knowledge of Daggers into this thread. But as my title suggests, I have just spent the past hour and a half trying too glean what I may from this post. I viewed a thread and watched it descend into antagonistic and acromonious conduct. If not for the Moderators, I will say with a great deal of certainty, that I probably would have witnessed my 1st online lynching! I applaud the expulsion of the person who called Craig Gottleib a shyster. Incivility such as that has no place in this Forum. And from what I have seen prior to this thread, I have no reason to believe that members treat each other like that as the norm. I am not writing this to defend Mr. Gottlieb, or champion his 'cause.' More circumspect members brought up some valid points that should be addressed. But I draw the line at the Mob with 'pitchforks' atmosphere I was starting to see. It probably regressed further then I even know! I could stomach no more after hearing him called a 'shyster'. I have purchased a few items of no great consequence from 'Mr Gottlieb', and always found both him and his staff to be both professional in their correspondence, and fair in their prices for the items I obtained. My dealings with him in no way make me have an opinion on the validity of a $70,000 dagger. But I can, and will have an opinion on how he was treated in this thread. He was treated shabbily by various members, and those members, in my opinion got what they deserved.

[Sal Williams]

I am a new member, and I wouldn't presume to throw my nascent knowledge of Daggers into this thread. But as my title suggests, I have just spent the past hour and a half trying too glean what I may from this post. I viewed a thread and watched it descend into antagonistic and acromonious conduct. If not for the Moderators, I will say with a great deal of certainty, that I probably would have witnessed my 1st online lynching! I applaud the expulsion of the person who called Craig Gottleib a shyster. Incivility such as that has no place in this Forum. And from what I have seen prior to this thread, I have no reason to believe that members treat each other like that as the norm. I am not writing this to defend Mr. Gottlieb, or champion his 'cause.' More circumspect members brought up some valid points that should be addressed. But I draw the line at the Mob with 'pitchforks' atmosphere I was starting to see. It probably regressed further then I even know! I could stomach no more after hearing him called a 'shyster'. I have purchased a few items of no great consequence from 'Mr Gottlieb', and always found both him and his staff to be both professional in their correspondence, and fair in their prices for the items I obtained. My dealings with him in no way make me have an opinion on the validity of a $70,000 dagger. But I can, and will have an opinion on how he was treated in this thread. He was treated shabbily by various members, and those members, in my opinion got what they deserved.

interesting second post.

[Frogprince]

While the topic was originally about the "silver" dagger it evolved into much more. (post # 1)

I do not know if this is permitted but this is informative and you will enjoy viewing what few have probably seen. Please go to Craig Gottlieb website and go to the daggers/edged weapons section. Scroll down until you reach the SA Birdshead Dagger, pics and description of the dagger are amazing. Actually here is the website.

Which was supported by post # 18.

............... FYI here's the "DAF/NSBO" dagger on my website archive:

But if for the moment we get past the daggers that are currently for sale in the U.S. and in Germany. And set them aside. This topic has evolved more into a general discussion about a whole class of daggers. And shed some interesting light on the activities of one of the early fakers of TR daggers. Which is what readers (IMO) should be focusing on as part of the broader impact of this thread - because these fakes have so permeated the collecting field by being "legitimized" in print for decades - that it could take years to undo the damage. FP