Craig Gottlieb-SA Birdshead Dagger

[David Guist]

Every one has there own opinons on it. But so far thats all there is opinion.Nothing has been proven good or bad.Theres alot of people in the collecting comunuity.Even if 60 or 70 plus % say it is fake. There still is no proof.
It can go the othere way to.Best regards.

[Frogprince]

I think that bad (or at least inferior) quality workmanship has been proven from the images I’ve seen so far. But then I imagine that there are those who might not care about such things depending on what they specialize in, so that could be a moot point for them. But if nothing else this has been a very interesting discussion, and I finally got a chance to see the mysterious (from 2007) DAF version of the “Birdhead” dagger. FP

[cogwheel]

Mr. Stephens: The birdsheads must have been made by the Eickhorn firm which was still operating in the 60s and the trademark was still active. Thus, the blade undoubtedly must have been made by someone who was familiar with blade making and with the rules of placing dedications. I can't imagine that a blade of that quality was made by some amateur who never did this kind of work before.

Also, the dagger offered by Craig Gottlieb has no dedication and trademark because it had been resurfaced so we really don't know if there was a dedication and how it was placed.

I have just noticed that there is another dagger shown in Atwood's book on page 164 which has an identical scabbard but lacking the hanger ring. The damascus blade also appears identical carrying a dedication. The accompanying text identify this dagger as a letter opener presented to Hitler by the NSDAP of the City of Solingen. This leaves me with the impression that the birdheads were likely intended to be letter openers.

[Jo Rivett]

Furthermore, some of the critique by Mr. Fuess was directed at the dagger posted on Germandressdaggers.com. Well, those pictures depict my dagger which is, as I stated previously, a replica.

You will note, that i linked and made reference to it due to the DATES displayed on that page, which differ entirely from the DATES quoted by both the owner of this Silver SA-Pelican dagger, as well as his Friends at the beginning of this thread. Of course the Bud Spencer gold dagger is a cheap Fantasy piece.
You are not allowed to use the word Replica here UNTIL it can be proven that these items existed, until that time, they remain Fantasy items, not copies, not replicas, plain fantasy.

[David Guist]

Realy they dont remain any thing but unknown either way.It look like unknown may be all it will ever be.Best regards.

[Frogprince]

You will note, that i linked and made reference to it due to the DATES displayed on that page, which differ entirely from the DATES quoted ............

One thing that is not an unknown is that the statement: “Fertigung der Firma Eickhorn, Solingen, um 1938 ......... length 30 cm” is on a German dealer’s website. Along with some better images of some of the details of the gold finished dagger. Not only is there the large casting void in one corner of the pommel that was seen posted here earlier. I can now see that inside that cavity it looks like it also has two smaller voids, all underneath the gold plating. FP

[georgecl]

Heres a couple pics of my Fake, fantasy, reproduction. Whichever you pick.

I thinke the same maker as Cogwheel's in the 1960's

Same flaw on the swaz. Maker on the blade is Karl Krebs. artificial sm. Rosebud.

George

[merdock]

Hi,

Was there not a northern England dealer that had high end repros made up in the 60's his name i can not remember but i have seen some over the years and they did look nice but were all rather flashy?

As this dagger is for sale for 70,000 what did the seller pay the old vet for it did he say here's 40,000 ? i think not.

even if i had just won the lottery[161m] i would not waste a penny on it and i have wasted plenty over the years.
Mark

[TxGauleiter]

Cogwheel,
If Craig Gottlieb were to offer you, say $50,000 for your dagger, would you accept it?

I should think you give it strong consideration, Craig too. It would be a tidy profit for you and Craig has the clientele who could afford such rarity and he could still make a killing.

Craig, at $50k would you be willing to buy Cogs dagger?

[Jo Rivett]

Heres a couple pics of my Fake, fantasy, reproduction. Whichever you pick.

I thinke the same maker as Cogwheel's in the 1960's

Same flaw on the swaz. Maker on the blade is Karl Krebs. artificial sm. Rosebud.

George

The eagle on yours, tops the Silver-REAL one by 100
at least they gave yours a half decent wreath, and a few feathers, No crotch on yours though, so we have a new variety, Craigs he-she pelican and your squatting bird. The damast on yours doesnt really do it for me. Stick it in the ground for a few years, and itll be a nice little nest-egg for your grandkids, probably be 500K each by then.

[cogwheel]

TxGauleiter: For my part I would not sell it for any amount because it is a collectible in its own way. In a sense I am a true collector, i.e. I never sell any item in my collection. This birdshead dagger represents an important part of my 'Foolsgold' collection which contains an array controversial items like the postwar FHH dagger, the navy honor dagger, the Diplomatic dress bayonet, a prototype railway dagger and some political high leader daggers that I finished and assembled from left over parts. Although they might not be of much interest to others I enjoy them more than I would a hand full of greenbacks.
I am aware that your question was not serious and more along the line of 'what if'. But I really mean what I say.

[TxGauleiter]

I find the fact that the dealer is unwilling to defend the dagger in question and unable to prove it's legitimacy as pre-45 very telling...

[Frogprince]

I find the fact that the dealer is unwilling to defend the dagger in question and unable to prove it's legitimacy as pre-45 very telling...

Earlier it was stated: “Nobody is really sure what this dagger type was used for, and but for some factory photographs discovered by Tom Johnson years ago, debate would have continued as to whether or not this was a 3rd Reich period produced item,” And “I believe one of the photos is in one of his books, but I don't know which.”. But as we know that does not always work out well as the “Offermann” photo proved. And if I remember it correctly, during or after the MAX of a few years ago. With another item which has been debated, it was stated that he (TMJ) had (verifiable?) period evidence of the so-called “DJ” knives. But that has never surfaced as far as I know, and one dealer of note seems to have discontinued that category even though the knives were “as common as dirt”.

But for those who want to own one of these "treasures", there are copies still being made. With a link posted below of one source that labels them as such with a different style hanger. With the dagger itself curiously enough being a copy of the “Atwood” example - being described as: “mit Widmung "Pg. Kreisleiter und Oberbürgermeister Vetter - Schönhoff, Oberführer." Länge 31,5 cm.”. Now why is that?? FP

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat60_r.txt

[cogwheel]

I think it is important that we recognize that there are two types of birdsheads. There is the socalled original, the one that is displayed in the books. It has a wider pommel with the eagle and swaz displayed front and back. Then there is the socalled 'replica' like the one in my collection, the one sold by Hermann-Historica and shown in several other posts on this thread. These replicas were clearly made in the 60s by Atwood. It seems to me that these two versions are being lumped together as all the same.

From some of the information that I have gathered I feel certain that the 'original' birdshead was never made to be worn on a belt but was intended as a letter opener.

[F. J. Stephens]

Two types of Birdshead

I think it is important that we recognize that there are two types of birdsheads. There is the socalled original, the one that is displayed in the books. It has a wider pommel with the eagle and swaz displayed front and back. Then there is the socalled 'replica' like the one in my collection, the one sold by Hermann-Historica and shown in several other posts on this thread. These replicas were clearly made in the 60s by Atwood. It seems to me that these two versions are being lumped together as all the same.

From some of the information that I have gathered I feel certain that the 'original' birdshead was never made to be worn on a belt but was intended as a letter opener.

Cogwheel,

You are correct, there are at least two types of post-war SA Birdshead; the so-called "original", as appearing in Atwood - and sundry identical copies in the same theme popping up in "leading" collections.

Then there is the "second-type" which you possess, and also seen elsewhere with various "modifications" - according to the skill of the finisher who put the piece together.

The question which concerns myself (I have no problem with the identification of the known copy types) is: Did this SA Special Presentation dagger ever exist in the first place?

I do not think that it did - and I will present my "evidence" stating why this should be so - in the near future (still a few more aspects to confirm).

Frederick J. Stephens