Craig Gottlieb-SA Birdshead Dagger

[Frogprince]

From a few years back posted on the Firearms Forum portion of the WAF - titled: "Let the P38 Controversy Begin".

"I recently bought a P38 that ........ Now for the controversial part: The P38 is a correct and matching Byf 44 and is NICKEL plated. I personally interviewed ........ and have a notarized letter written and signed by him confirming that the P38 was plated at the time he ........"

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthread.php?t=158006&highlight=chrome+plating&p age=1

With my point simply being that “provenance” is a variable depending on the source. With some being right on the money. But sometimes not. FP

[Jo Rivett]

Sorry, but I don't have to rely on a veteran story to sell a dagger. I rely on my reputation, which in all but 1% of uniformed circles, is quite good. People vote with their dollars, and my clients are conscientious and thorough. Besides, there is a BIG difference between a "story" and "provenance." And a living veteran who the owner of a dagger can speak to, is worth a thousand "vet stories." Those with extensive experience buying direct from vets, like Ron Weinand, will attest to this. It's this kind of experience that gives us a clearer understanding of what actually existed during the period.

Backing a strange and unique item up with one solid piece of period evidence, is worth 100 recorded vets stories.
Following with interest

[Frogprince]

Fred, we've been through this before ............ you're welcome to your opinion. Tie your theory to a pock mark in the pommel, or ..........

Thanks for the “heads up” on some of the discussion that I must have missed.

Backing a strange and unique item up with ....... solid ....... evidence, is worth .........

And solid evidence can often be hard to find. So I did some side by side comparisons of the silver, versus the gold finished daggers just to see what they might look like closer up. Pockmarks are what we saw with the badly cast silver chain parts of some of the “Hühnlein” NSKK daggers. But I see what looks like 4 (more?), not “pockmarks”. But fairly large casting voids on one side of the gold finished pommel. Maybe some better images will prove me wrong. But that is not the case with what I’ve seen so far. FP

[Bill101]

Someone needs to write a book about the life of Atwood.I would buy it in a heart beat.

I think Bruce Petrin was going to write something like that,,,,
Bruce likes this dagger he told me,,,for once he agrees with Gottlieb

[cogwheel]

Regarding the URL in posting #24, it would have been nice if Mr. Royster could have provided some proof for his assertion that the dagger was created by Mr. Atwood in the 60s. If the design in any aspect was based on an export product for the Argentine Navy there should be some supporting documentation in the form of an Eickhorn export catalog which would provide an image of that dagger allegedly used by Mr. Atwood.
In addition, does anyone know of any other fantasy daggers that were created by Mr. Atwood and subsequently passed off as TR originals?

[Bill101]

Regarding the URL in posting #24, it would have been nice if Mr. Royster could have provided some proof for his assertion that the dagger was created by Mr. Atwood in the 60s. If the design in any aspect was based on an export product for the Argentine Navy there should be some supporting documentation in the form of an Eickhorn export catalog which would provide an image of that dagger allegedly used by Mr. Atwood.
In addition, does anyone know of any other fantasy daggers that were created by Mr. Atwood and subsequently passed off as TR originals?

Why should Mr Royster have to provide proof when Mr Gottlieb and
Ron Wienand do not?

Mr Atwood was one of the biggest cons in the game,,right up there with Floch


Well someone believes in it,,I see its on hold

[F. J. Stephens]

Atwood fakes

In response to Mr. Vogel's ("Cogwheel") request for proof of Atwood's chicanery, may I submit the attached "SS Prototype" Dagger which is accredited to Atwood - and I believe generally accepted by the knowledgeable collecting community as a completely faked conception emanating from the damascus smith Paul Muller. Mr. Atwood was very complicit in infiltrating these into the collecting community. I have a copy of the document in which Paul Muller fraudulently states that these were "prototypes" which he created.

As I also believe that these so-called "SA Birdshead" daggers were faked up connivances with Atwood's cooperation. I will present my information in due course.

Frederick J. Stephens

[Jo Rivett]

Well someone believes in it,,I see its on hold

As the right Honorable Craig Gottlieb previously stated:

People vote with their dollars,

How sad that they dont vote with Facts & History. Then again, why let those two trivialities, which are hard for some people to understand, get in the way of a fat pay check

[cogwheel]

Bill101: Well, don't you think that any assertion should be accompanied with at least a modicum of substance and proof? I, for one, would think so.
There are too many instances where someone comes along and trashes an artifact with a mostly opinionated statement and then just quietly sneeks away. There have been claims that all Himmler daggers with the Eickhorn smooth tailed eagle TMs were postwar fakes. In another instant another claim was that all SA and SS high leader daggers with oakleave decorated scabbard fittings were fakes. USO.

[Bill101]

Manfred,
mr "fuess" is spot on,,,and Fredrick Stephens has been around
longer than 90% of the folks on this forum,,,and is he a common household name? No,,,WHY? because he's not out to rape this hobby for the almighty $$
like,,the Burmeisters,,,Gottliebs,,Wienands,,and Neimans,,the list goes on and on,,,

Why should he provide a modicum of anything?? all I hear from Gottlieb is veteran this,,veteran that,,,,wheres PERIOD DOCUMENTATION????

its that simple,,anything else is pure conjecture and whoever pays more than 50.00 for this fantasy item has more $$ than brains,,,,really people,,when are we going to say enough is enough???

[Dietrich Maerz]

Why should he provide a modicum of anything??

For the sanity of us all it is better Mr. Royster (aka Gregory Douglas, Peter Stahl, Freiherr von Moellendorf, Gregory Burch, Christian Zander and many more) doesn't explain anything at all. Someone with such a multiple split personality is not very credible. So far he has not given one shred of prove of anything - including his name!

[Frogprince]

..........In addition, does anyone know of any other fantasy daggers that were created by Mr. Atwood and subsequently passed off as TR originals?

See the Paul Müller entry in TW's SS book. And that is just what Müller publicly admitted to making. FP

[Jo Rivett]

Mr. Royster .....(aka Peter Stahl, Freiherr von Moellendorf,

That would make the Royster well over 80 years old now
On your post, i am almsot shocked to say, i agree with you 100%
Of course i agree with the Royster 99,3% as well, and believe most of what he has printed as being absolutely spot on, regarding most names he has mentioned so far, But like you said, without any real, substantial "meat" on his page to back up what he writes, (documentation, images) his site & the effort put into it will sadley not be taken seriously by the majority as to most it comes across as senseless ranting without actual proof., kind of like a personal forum with him being the Admin, mod and only poster.

☼ LIGHT BULB ☼

Hang about??... If you read the articles on Craig Gottliebs website, regarding these daggers, gau badges, rings... the list goes on, the style is exactly the same as that of the Royster, all writing, opinion and no meat to back anything up... could i have cracked this nut? could the Royster, in fact be the right Honorable Craig Gottlieb? A split personality maybe......

I do hope that he comes back to this thread and provides some evidence, other than old Vet Tales that these daggers actually were TR items. I fear though, ca$h was all that mattered, and now that pockets have been lined with sheckels, recorded vet tales on CD-ROM have changed hands, that will be it....... those hungry for Period meat are once again left...well left hungry

[F. J. Stephens]

SA Birdshead - or SA Bird Brain?

Greetings Gentlemen - particularly Frogprince, and Dietrich Maerz,

I am just waiting to see if my colleague, Wags, can upload my photograph for me - in reponse to Cogwheel's request for any imagery concerning Atwood's fantasy pieces, well I am presenting one such example - when it can be uploaded. So I will make that case there and then.

Now regarding this business of the "SA Birdshead" Dagger - for which I have publicly stated my confirmed doubt about such a piece - I invite every other "authoritive researcher" ( Mr. Gottlieb, Mr. Weinand, et al) to put forth their evidence to support the existence of such an item - do they have any real proof?

Mr. Weinand has stated, positively, that these SA Daggers were given to Industrialists who gave support to the NSDAP. Is ther any evidence to support this claim? Is there any evidence to support the existence of these pieces in the first case.? Of course I am not challenging anything that Mr. Weinand has been told - I am simply stating that once a claim has been made, should there not be background evience to prove its' reality - surely that is not too much to ask?

Frederick J. Stephens

[tanker]

Oh no, not another controversy concerning a piece from Craig Gottleib! Ron