dagger prices and young collectors?

[andrew13]

Hello guys, I've only collected daggers seriously for about 3 years, but in that time I've built up a lot of friendships with fellow collectors and dealers. 2 have recently sold their entire (advanced) collections due to their belief that the market has peaked and will soon crash. They cite the inflated price's of common daggers such as S.A's and armys as examples why it can't go on. Just 3-4 years ago when I started a nice conditioned s.a. was about £400. Now it's £6-800. A good navy was £400, now £600+. An SS was £1200-£1500, now it's around £2000+.In the 2003 Wittman offering you could buy ss-gruppenfuhrer prof.Dr. Karl Gebhardt's early degen, 1936 chained ss and his ek 1st class, all monogrammed for $11,995! Now some dealers ask around that or more just for a 36 ss. Some dealers/collectors have said that, when Wittmanns ss book was published, ss dagger prices almost doubled overnight and while it's an essential reference and made pieces "textbook" it unfortunately had that price inflating effect. Same as the Mc Sarr list has greatly increased "rare" maker S.A's, even though at every fair and on the websites there are hundreds for sale. One guy of 40+ years experience said to me " some of the biggest dealers took a fun, working mans hobby and turned it into an international buisness". And because so much money is now involved, the fakes are getting better and better. Also, when I go to the fairs I hardly ever see any young collectors around. The only one I know is a guy who's 21, otherwise I see a few like me in they're early thirties then it seems to jump to much older guys. So, what do you guys think? will prices come down? And are there any youngsters getting involved? Will prices HAVE to come down to get the next generation hooked? (like us)

[The Red Baron]

I'm 21 and I have a decent dagger collection, including 3 M33 and 1 M36 SS along with 10 other daggers/swords some visors, medals, etc. While prices do suck, especially for a college student, I think the hobby will always bring in new younger members, just not as many and only those with the strongest interest which will help them overlook the money and encourage them to learn enough to beat the fakers. I do not believe the market will crash, coming from a history and German major hahaha, because while prices may fluctuate there will always be historical and aesthetic value to these pieces. And I don't believe the siZe of the market is going to shrink that much anytime soon unless ALL the "older" collectors are about to die off and no new collectors emerge. I do think it may shrink, but in the long run 20-30 years?, and prices will always be there just restrictive as to who can participate in the hobby instead of the wide range of incomes participating like the hobby probably once saw. Jmo

[collecter]

Speaking as one of the "older collectors"(57) I have seen price's rise in the hobby over the years,I must admit quite alot in the last couple of years.In 1972 the price of an SA dagger was about £17(my first one was a copy) by 1979 I bought my first original SA for £45,this was an average price until 1981 when they fetched about £60/65 and £75 for an NSKK and we thought that price's were too high then and that they would have to come down!,but as we know as demand from new collectors increase's so the price go'es up.I never dreamt that an SA would ever fetch £400,but thats progress I suppose.John

[Nolan]

I first collected TR dags in the late 60's /early70's, disposed of my collection late 70's when I listened to the rubbish that TR stuff was about to crash, well it never happened then and won't happen now, if you have the patience and nerve to hang on to your collection, no matter how big or small, you will have the benefit of at least enjoying it and hopefully beating inflation when the time comes for either you or your heirs to cash in.

I just now wish I had had held on to some of mine.

Hope this helps

Nolan

[ValhallaMilitaria]

Prices ARE down across the board with few exceptions such as SS items, helmets (always a strong seller) and desirable uniform items. This year has seen prices fall even farther and its the time to score some amazing deals like the name only ground Rohm Haenel SA dagger that went for around 1000.00 here last month...I've sold some great items this week for what feels to me like peanuts....buy now....stash it away...better times are coming.
Eric

[dave peifer]

hi guys........i have always collected for historical interest.it wouldn't hurt my feelings if tomorrow i would walk into a show and see prices as they were in 1963 when i started collecting.i would be able to preserve even more history.

[Michael Fay]

+internet

One guy of 40+ years experience said to me " some of the biggest dealers took a fun, working mans hobby and turned it into an international buisness". And because so much money is now involved, the fakes are getting better and better.

add to this the INTERNET and you have almost all the culprits... except of course for those buyers who also "buy in" to such high prices.

[lsmilitaria]

hi guys........i have always collected for historical interest.it wouldn't hurt my feelings if tomorrow i would walk into a show and see prices as they were in 1963 when i started collecting.i would be able to preserve even more history.

We'll said. I buy the items because I love the history and would never buy an item solely as an investment. If someone sells off their chained SS dagger because they are scared they couldn't get their money out of it, they shouldn't of bought it in the first place. I can think of better, safer investments to drop 10k into. At the end of the day, these objects just sit on a shelf...

I'm 26 and have been at this for 7 years now. The prices on some of these items are ridiculous and I have come to the realization a long time ago, there are some things that I will never get a chance to own because of it. I would love to see prices from the 60's. I don't need the whole German army in my closet, but It would be nice to leave a show with a handful of helmets. These items will always hold their historical and monetary value, just look at Civil War items... Maybe a 16 year old kid cant afford $400 for a dagger but a 20 something guy with a normal job could make it work. The fact of the matter is, most young people just don't have an interest in this stuff. Some of my friends in their 20's like it, some don't and only 1 of them collects. Its just the way it is. Prices on this stuff will go up and down now and then but will always remain relatively high. As time goes on, it will be harder and harder to find these things. When I reach my 60's, WWII would of been fought over 100 years ago. We'll be talking Civil War prices then

[jh-ss44]

Actually prices may fall...... far less collectors joining up.
go to any real good military show, weed out the younger crowd there because daddy brought them. weed out some of the reenactors , who really don't collect the real items.
just far less younger people interested in collecting it. then you have those who can't afford it. next are those who started, and posted photos here ,to be told it's a fake item , ect.
the "original crowd" is much oldder, some selling off the collections because they know their kids don't want it. afraid of what's going to happen to it. OR they know the kids only see $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
know a few dealers buying up collections , but the buyers seem to be more other dealers , not actually collectors.
plus if some of the "well known " dealers pass away today, which one of us would be able to buy up parts of that grouping tomorrow ? not many.
demand is starting to slip a little , less collectors

[ValhallaMilitaria]

One last comment on the lack of new and young collectors, when I was growing up we had model shops that featured mostly ww2 planes, ships,tanks guns and the books to help you model them properly. There were movies, books, COMIC BOOKS!...sgt rock, the losers, unknown soldier,weird war, gi combat,all out war, fightin' army, sgt fury, etc...ww2 was also not 70 years ago as it is now but more like 30 or so years and all of our dads and their dads had helmets, uniforms etc for us kids to play with...the swastika also was not the 'hate symbol' it is today but a biker thing, anti social thing, it wasn't good but it also wasn't 'evil' as it is perceived today. There ARE some new young collectors such as Panzer224? (Fred) ..Senior in HS and a very astute and knowledgeable new collector. We have., as a culture, moved on from ww2 and its now far in the past and not as relevant to the majority of young people, there may come a time when prices on this stuff tumble...maybe 20 years from now? who knows....
Just some ramblings from a collector who grew up in the 'golden age' of the hobby.
Eric

[STRADALE]

I have great respect for our Veterans, we owe them EVERYTHING so I don't want to sound macabre but I've wondered about the future effect of less direct vet purchases & less vets passing on..... For the past 10-20 years WWII vets have passed, sometimes their families finding their WWII TR daggers or families knew about these articles and sold them when their fathers, uncles, etc passed on. Especially in the last 10+ years these were frequent events . As the years pass from here seems to reason that there will be less veterans & vet families in that situation, less vets passing away & less direct veteran purchases...... In the not to distant future direct vet acquisitions become extinct........ TR daggers never in collections become rare & there are fewer available original, unmolested daggers. What affect will this have on the value of unmolested edged weapons? I have my opinion.

One thing I have noticed is that the NM/Mint pieces are much more in demand & that will most likely be the case in the future. Mediocre daggers at aggressive prices can sit for sale while a Mint dagger even overpriced is gone in a heartbeat. I've seen this in other areas, not related to TR militaria as well. The Mint pieces are rarities in and of themselves. In addition over time daggers & other items kept in less than optimal conditions continue to deteriorate or get abused through handling, etc. so condition plays an even greater role in the future. I wouldn't recommend to anyone to buy WWII TR daggers as an investment but based on my knowledge on dissimilar collectibles imo it's these mint pieces are the ones that will probably hold the best valuations down the road...

[dave peifer]

like i stated earlier.......i collect...........preserve history.........for the historical interest.i collect items id'd to an individual or a unit,i have operated a small flea mkt stand for over 20 years here.mainly to make contacts with veterans or there families,this is where i met a medic of hq.co.506th pir.101st abn.div.resulting in a friendship that lasted over 8 years.every saturday he would pick up his fruits and vegetables and spend probably an hour with me,as he said,just shooting the breeze.a dealer asked me one day"wow did you get anything from him?"i said yes........a great friendship and a lot of hand shakes.the younger people need to develope an interest in history.........collecting should come next.paul took his last jump in 2006 and i wouldn't trade the time spent with him for every ss dagger at the sos.

[ValhallaMilitaria]

What a great post! truly what this is all about...I do wonder though what things he did have in his attic!

like i stated earlier.......i collect...........preserve history.........for the historical interest.i collect items id'd to an individual or a unit,i have operated a small flea mkt stand for over 20 years here.mainly to make contacts with veterans or there families,this is where i met a medic of hq.co.506th pir.101st abn.div.resulting in a friendship that lasted over 8 years.every saturday he would pick up his fruits and vegetables and spend probably an hour with me,as he said,just shooting the breeze.a dealer asked me one day"wow did you get anything from him?"i said yes........a great friendship and a lot of hand shakes.the younger people need to develope an interest in history.........collecting should come next.paul took his last jump in 2006 and i wouldn't trade the time spent with him for every ss dagger at the sos.

[dave peifer]

i did get a few small items over the years but his ike,medals and documents went to the museum at camp toccoa ga. as per his wishes.point being i think there is a tendancy to loose perspective as to what collecting is all about.

[andrew13]

Thanks for the replies. I also think that the younger generations not having uncles or grandfathers who were vet's has the effect of far less interest in anything to do with ww2. I remember when I was growing up there was still loads of people who went through it and talked about it. This was in the 80's and all the kids still ran around with toy guns being Germans and English or Americans. There was still a massive and popular interest in it. But, I still think if the prices weren't so high there would be lots more people getting into it. When I first bought a dagger (s.a.) and some of my friends and my younger brothers friends saw it, they were astounded. Quite a lot of them started buying medals and tinnies then a few bought their first s.a's. They're intelligent people like us who were genuinely interested in the history and aesthetics of the various daggers. They became collectors,yet each one has slowly stopped due to prices, nothing else. As much as it pains them to do it, they've threw the towel in. It especially hurts when you look at a Wittmann offering from 10 years ago and see the massive difference in SS prices. I just wish I'd started then. Regards Andy.