SS Scharnhorst sword and SS Unattributed sword

[daz181]

Darren, you can beat on me all you like as I only have bought , sold and collected German swords and daggers for 37 years. I regularly attend and sell at the MAX and SOS so I've seen and handled some very important pieces. I am by no means an expert in anything. I have been called an expert by many in the Antique Watch and Jewelry repair area as that 's been my business for for roughly 40 years.

I have not made a career studying the WKC #1013 and #1014 as their are more important pieces out there.

Now as for the Enamel or Glass Enamel, their should be some kind of scratches or blemishes as the piece is roughly 70+ years of age. After all it's located in a high wear area. These types of inlays will most definitely show some age especially when I see evidence of worn plating and such as on this sword hilt.

I think you need to ask yourself why they have'nt sold . I believe all great stuff sells and SS stuff goes in a flash.

Response.....

In response to your comments about the Enamel, I fail to understand where you are coming from when you say it is a “high wear area”. The enamel is facing outwards on the sword and so would not come into contact with the wearer at all. I think you also need to take into consideration the strength of enamel and the fact that the very small area you are referring to is actually recessed with the runes sitting proud. The hilt on the other hand obviously stands proud and is therefore much more prone to knocks and scratches, you will (or may)be aware, it is made from solid nickel which is a relatively soft metal.<O</O
<O</O

As for the reason it hasn’t sold, well I don’t need to think too deeply about that one, especially when I have people like yourself making inaccurate observations. As you said yourself, you haven’t “made a career” out of studying these swords (you mend watches) but yet you bandy around your misguided and un-qualified opinions. If you had had the common courtesy to notify me when you originally made your comments, I would have been able to put them to bed there and then.

d.<O</O

[Ed Sunday]

Darren, If I remember correctly , these swords were up for sale on GDC and this forum for a very long time before I ever said anything about them. Maybe 2 years now.

As for the runes area , they face outward which is where you would see the wear. I am very familiar with enamel and glass enamel as I repair antique jewelry on a regular basis.

Yes I feel very confident going with my gut feeling after putting in 37 full time years buying german swords and daggers and allways doing the right thing for clients and new collectors.

I have saved many of my upper end german collectors from buying high grade fake Rolex watches and such.

[SwordFish]

Daren,

I don't espouse to be an expert. I tend to avoid all SS items as it's not my bag. I do however follow closely threads, discussions, and literature available on the subject matter. As you probably recall, there was a significant discussion some years back on the silver hilted early SS style sabers, with and without the enamled runes. The thread is no longer available as I suspect it was deleted with the hosting switch-over. If memory serves me, a member alleged that there were individuals cranking our modified sabers in the '60s or '70s with the sole intent to defraud collectors. I also recall the thread becoming somewhat heated, and vastly different assertions from different collectors. I sat on the sideline and followed it closely.

For clarification purposes, it's not your saber which makes me uncomfortable or gives me a bad gut feeling. It's all these early type SS sabers in general. With high end items, the crooks have the motivation to modify and create pieces..obviously. As such, caution must be excercised. My approach is to simply avoid these with fervor. I'm not in a position to ascertain nor assert which are good, period examples, vs. examples which are modified creations. They are just not for me.

I enjoy sabers, particularyly Heer sabers and Luft fliegerschwerts. Conversely, I also enjoy furthering my understanding of the hobby, even areas to which I have no intention of collecting. Other collectors like George, Fred, and so on, have a better breadth of understanding and experience with these to draw from. I'll leave it to those fellows, and follow the discourse intently.

Tom

[daz181]

Darren, If I remember correctly , these swords were up for sale on GDC and this forum for a very long time before I ever said anything about them. Maybe 2 years now.

As for the runes area , they face outward which is where you would see the wear. I am very familiar with enamel and glass enamel as I repair antique jewelry on a regular basis.

Yes I feel very confident going with my gut feeling after putting in 37 full time years buying german swords and daggers and allways doing the right thing for clients and new collectors.

I have saved many of my upper end german collectors from buying high grade fake Rolex watches and such.

In response to Ed<O
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The swords were on sale on this forum and GDC for 6 months (June ’08 to Dec’08) – my membership expired in Dec ’08 and I haven’t renewed it until this month. You are perhaps confusing them with others pieces.<O</O
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I understand that you repair jewellery, I understand that you may have in depth knowledge about Rolex watches – this I am not disputing......however when it comes to WKC SS swords, you, by your own admission are not knowledgeable – evidence and research does not come into your argument which as far as I am concerned makes your comments extremely flimsy. This sword is not a watch!<O</O
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The fact that T.Wittmann and T.Johnson both showed this piece in their books gives a far more compelling argument than Rolex watches and your “gut feeling ” from repairing jewellry!!<O</O
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If you feel that you need to post on this again, please show some hard evidence (not watches), research and fact that this sword is anything but genuine. <O</O

d.<O</O

[Ed Sunday]

Darren, Why must you belittle a person constantly. I have plenty of experience and knowledge with german items.

I only use my trade in this discussion so you know that I'm not blind to enameling and metals which I work with on a regular basis.

The " Gut " feeling is something all of us collectors use in many decisions we make no matter what it is we do.

Lots of items have been shown in books and many were proven wrong over time.

I want too know how many of these swords have turned up out of the woodwork in the states or is it one of those things from the other side of the pond ?

[daz181]

Darren, Why must you belittle a person constantly. I have plenty of experience and knowledge with german items.

I only use my trade in this discussion so you know that I'm not blind to enameling and metals which I work with on a regular basis.

The " Gut " feeling is something all of us collectors use in many decisions we make no matter what it is we do.

Lots of items have been shown in books and many were proven wrong over time.

I want too know how many of these swords have turned up out of the woodwork in the states or is it one of those things from the other side of the pond ?

Response to ED<O</O
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I find your comments again confusing, I am not belittling you, merely stating that we are talking about one particular model of SS sword, not watches or jewellery. If you are going for the sympathy vote then really you have no need to.<O</O
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Yes, I understand the value of your gut instinct, however on the points you have raised there are valid explanations and evidence to the contrary, published on this site for all to see.<O</O
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Yes some published items have been proved to be fake, however I am content with the fact that many highly experienced collectors and dealers who specialise in SS edged weapons have agreed that it is an original. I have had dealers e.g. T.Wittman, S.Wilson, G.David who in the past, have offered to sell it for me, surely they would not put their hard earned and respected reputations on the line?<O</O
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I think that the bottom line here is that your gut instinct would tell you not to purchase the sword, but at the end of the day knowledge, evidence and expertise goes against your view. I think there is little point going on and on about this. <O</O

If I’m ever offered a Rolex watch that looks suspiciously like it may originate from Turkey then I’ll look you up, but on the topic of SS Swords I think I’ll get my advice from other sources.

D.

PS If anyone wants to buy this sword email me...<O</O

[Ed Sunday]

Darren, I don't have to worry about saving my reputation as I have made litterally thousands of transactions and no one is calling me a liar, crook , cheat, thief, dishonest or whatever.

You had showed these swords as far back as 2006 and recieved negative reviews from others in the business.

Again what you and others on these forums fail to realise that if I wanted to make this hilt up, I could and YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO TELL !!! This is why I mentioned what my business is. These swords are not copied by blind latvians but By COMPETENT people like me who could easily decieve others if they want to !

See I can actually BUILD a watch and have for many years. Many of these high end fakes are made by manufacturing jewelers.

I'm not looking for any sympathy votes now or later !

Oh you forgot to tell me how many of these were vet found here in the states.

[daz181]

Darren, I don't have to worry about saving my reputation as I have made litterally thousands of transactions and no one is calling me a liar, crook , cheat, thief, dishonest or whatever.

You had showed these swords as far back as 2006 and recieved negative reviews from others in the business.

Again what you and others on these forums fail to realise that if I wanted to make this hilt up, I could and YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO TELL !!! This is why I mentioned what my business is. These swords are not copied by blind latvians but By COMPETENT people like me who could easily decieve others if they want to !

See I can actually BUILD a watch and have for many years. Many of these high end fakes are made by manufacturing jewelers.

I'm not looking for any sympathy votes now or later !

Oh you forgot to tell me how many of these were vet found here in the states.

Response to Ed..

Well let me be the first to call you a liar.. You are the first dealer/collector who has given any negative reviews regarding this sword.

I won't bother to ask you to back up your statement with examples of these so called other negatative reviews. As you haven't been able to back up any other statement that you have made.....

I think you should start thinking of your reputation and move on, as it's become very clear to me that thread has moved from discussing my sword to you trying to save face.

End of discussion...

d.

PS Sorry, I know there is 1 in a collection in US and 2 in the UK

[Paul V]

swords that don't sell!

Ed

I know all the edge weapons you have and what you are able to do!

Your experience in spotting things in finish and restoration
is amazing!

If you can look at a item in person with that third eye(loupe)
your skills will tell dead on!

I would buy your edge weapons in a heart beat! And do when
you put something up for sale!

Your edge weapons in the condition you collect are in such demand that
I have never seen you have to list anything for sale as its sold the minute
you offer it in person!

At the shows people in the know will always try and buy your stuff!

But you tease them and say not for sale!


The quality of nice stuff you have does not have to be discussed
ever!

Daz

Its been painfull to watch you try and sell these swords for last yr and I feel bad for you!

Don't know why but maybe you should consign them to top tier folks!

Just seems you have been fishing for shark with a bamboo pole!
Ed Sunday is not the reason you can't off these very expensive swords!

The finish looks brand new on enamel and that was first thing I saw
when looking! I won't even quess on runes!

PVON

[BOB C]

Daz
i think in your eyes your the only expert here. If your sword is so rare it would have sold a long time ago. Being an expert you should know that.

I have bought some things from some of the big time dealers that came out of 40 year old collections. It turned out that i had to return them. I think you should do the same. You could not give me that sword now.

There is a reason that your sword has not sold. You must have asked your self that question.

I have bought some of the nicest daggers and swords from ed sunday for my own personal collection. Never had a problem with ed he is not dishonest and he doesn't lie. Any thing that i bought from ed i never had a hard time reselling .

I think you should tell ed your sorry for calling him a liar.
I was a ss collector for a very long time and i got out of it because i did not want to go through what your go through right now.

Your the one that asked for opinions and know you don't like what you here.

[Mark C. Yerger]

I recall someone trying for months to sell some of these "SS silver lionhead" types bought from one of the "big" dealers. Nobody would touch them and prices he paid were nuts.

More than a bit "iffy" as they'd show up in more period photos. Those I have of SS officers pre degan period are normally just Army swords. Including big ranks.

For the $, buy a plain SS sword and have everyone and his brother look at it before shelling out the money. To many modified/screwed with police swords.

[SwordFish]

I tend to feel Bob's suggesstion is probably the best option for selling the pieces. The niche market of collectors for very high end pieces just don't spend enough time on the forums. Anyway, having them consigned with a larger, up-scale dealer may provide the best fruits for the current owner. In that event, the dealer may also offer a COA and guarantee as stipulated as consignment rule, which may also help to lure in interested parties.

[Serge M.]

Daz,
I'm having a problem of understanding why this fact is seeminly escaping you is that Ed or others here are not the reason for the "No Sale" of this SS saber.
Since you had tried to sell it for an extendend period in a stronger economy, yet it remained unsold to date.
So even we "Know Nothings" (speaking for myself) only can say is "The Market Has Spoken".
And spoken it has way before this thread. Everyone I know has heard about this saber.

Your general demeaning tone toward us "No Balls"-"No Nothings" is really a low and uncalled for blow. However calling Ed a "Lier" for just what he stated here as "His Opinion" deserves an apology.
I know Ed and he is No Lier but a well respected senior member in the hobby.

But what is really clear here is that sadly you are a collector who can not take criticism of an item in your collection. But instead choose to shamefully use words that are directed to be hurtful and disrespectful.


Cheers,
-Wagner-