SS Scharnhorst sword and SS Unattributed sword

[Mark Steel]

I am looking for someone to give me an opinion on the value of two SS sword I am looking at buying. I want to buy one of them and need some input. I am a new collector. These are both listed by Darren Mears on this site. One is a SS "Scharnhorst" featured in Whitmans book, the other an SS unattributed officer's sword with motto. Any information would be greatly appreciated. My best, Mark

[SCHUPO]

I am looking for someone to give me an opinion on the value of two SS sword I am looking at buying. I want to buy one of them and need some input. I am a new collector. These are both listed by Darren Mears on this site. One is a SS "Scharnhorst" featured in Whitmans book, the other an SS unattributed officer's sword with motto. Any information would be greatly appreciated. My best, Mark

Mr. Steel,

I believe this sword has been critically analyzed and discussed at length on GD but it seems that the thread is now gone.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=310514

I am not certain which of the other swords this seller has for sale you are asking about but I can tell you that the reference book citied is clearly wrong in discussing this particular sword. This sword is not, and never was, an Eickhorn "Scharnhorst" model sword as stated in the reference book and by the seller. It is clearly a modified "Zieten" Patent-Säbel with the Heer eagle in the langet replaced with SS runes and anyone with an Eickhorn catalog should be able to tell the difference between these two sword models.

You indicate that you are a new collector. My input would be to make very certain of exactly what you are buying before you pay large amounts of money for a sword. I have collected swords for around 50 years and own a great many books on the subject, including original maker catalogs. Don't be in too much of a hurry to buy the first thing you see. All original Nazi swords have been around for around 60-70 years and you are not going to miss out by studying what you want to purchase. My suggestion would be to start collecting with verifiable standard model swords. If you want an SS sword, I would suggest that you buy a regulation SS Officer Degen after reading some books.

[SwordFish]

Echo what George has to say.

One needs to be particularyly careful when it comes to SS style lionheads, silver hilters, etc. Anything alleging to be SS needs to be clearly examined. If set on an SS sword, like Geoge said, save up and buy a degen from someone reputable. We just recently saw a member with a degen that turned out to raise many significant issues when he tried to sell it. Tread very lightly on the area of SS. I've never been a big fan of some of these pieces. There have been a variety of lionhead sabers floating around with applied SS runes, enamled, pinned, attached, whatever, which were ultimately agreen upon to be bunk. Tread very lightly with this stuff. I havn't seen this particular saber you are referring to, but the description itself sets off bells. These are not for me. I'm aware of a few examples that are good, but overall, the stuff is WAY TOO sketchy.

[Mark Steel]

SS unattributed sword

I thank you for your input the sword I am the most interested in is not listed here. I thought it was, it is on German Militaria collectables item # F7340 If you have access and can look at it I would be most grateful. It may even be in one of your catalog's. I gather its not because he claims its unatributed? Thanks again. Mark

[Mark Steel]

SS WKC model # 1013

Please then offer your opinion on the WKC model # 1013 listed here. It should be well known from its catalog. Any opinion on its value? Is there anyone who authenticates and appraises SS swords?

[SwordFish]

Mark-
Without looking are you referring to the piece being sold by Daz (I think that's his handle)?

Like I said, there are accepted examples out there that are legit. I believe that some of the older literature may have been incorrect in some of the assumptions. I'd need to look through my most recent periodicals for some of the accepted examples. What I am saying though is there is alot of room for bad pieces and manipulated pieces. As a rule of thumb, I avoid these. For a legitimate example, be prepared to pay, big time. If you see one floating around for 2K, rest assured, it's priced that way for a reason. Overwhelmingly, many pieces that fall into this category are looked with skepticism in the collecting community. Unfortunately, for good examples, they too are looked at critically. I've seen many many examples of various pieces that are clearly fakes. Many were originally valid, legitimate Army pieces, that were played with over the years in an attempt to defraud..and yes, many people have been taken by them. I'll dig through my reference later and see what I can come up with. I'll also try a look at the site you are describing and see.

Again, not all are bad, but I would guess that 80% of what's out there is; heck probably much higher % than that. Contact FP, one of the mods over at GDC sword section with detailed questions. He has more than a cursory understanding of this stuff.

Like I said, I avoid risky pieces for good reason.

t

[SwordFish]

I just checked the pieces at GMC. I actually had noticed these last week I belive when they were listed? I don't know the seller at all. You'd really want some solid provenance and expert opinions and certification on these or else you'll have one heck of a time moving these in the future.

Like George had said, various pieces similiar to the 1013 were discussed over the years at GD and if I recall correctly, most were believed to be post war fabrications.

[SwordFish]

Additionally, for everyone to see, these are listed at GMC. Here's the link:

http://germanmilitariacollectables.c...category_ID=14

The piece refernced is actually a Zieten, as mentioned, not a Scharnhorst.

[Mark Steel]

SS WKC model # 1013

Thank you very much. This particular sword is referenced in Whitman's book and was purchased from what appears to be a well known collector Barry Brown also mentioned in the book. Who can authenticate it for me?

[Serge M.]

I'm not a sword guy but being around daggers I can tell you one thing, just because it's been in a High-End collectors collection does not mean that is the way it looked in May of 1945.
Some of the most high-end collectors got stuck on bad High-End Fakes. These deep-pocket guys have been targeted by the fraudsters since the 50's.
They all had fakes....and many still do.

Regarding your sword I would say SCHUPO, Fred Prinze & JR, could give you a "pro-analysis" on it.
And I do recommend you get one of these guys to tell you what they see.

Regards,
-wagner-

[Ed Sunday]

Actually if you go over to Tom Wittmanns site he just listed a WKC #1016 SS lion head sword in very rough condition but it is no doubt the REAL thing! It will need a lot of TLC !

[SCHUPO]

Thank you very much. This particular sword is referenced in Whitman's book and was purchased from what appears to be a well known collector Barry Brown also mentioned in the book. Who can authenticate it for me?

Mark,

I believe that the cited book is possibly wrong again regarding this sword being a WKC #1013.

Here is the problem with this particular sword. It was marketed under several numbers by WKC depending upon slight variations. It was sold as a WKC #5 with a spray of laural leaves in the langet. It was also sold as a WKC #1024 with a gilt hilt and silver or gold eagle and swastika in the langet. The sword was also marketed as a WKC #1056 with a cast eagle and swastika in the langet. So, as you can see it existed under several different catalog numbers with slight variations. The sword is not shown in the WKC catalog as an SS sword with runes on the langet.

The WKC #1024 variation (also shown as a #1056 in Jack Angolia's book) had the Heer eagle and swastika separately riveted to the obverse langet. This meant that the device was set inside a recessed area exactly like the SS runes on the sword you are asking about. The recessed area was stippled on the Heer sword offered by WKC but is filled in with black enamel on the sword in question. Therefore, I believe that the sword in question is in fact a modified WKC #1024 that has also been silvered.

The first question I would ask is if this sword was made in this configuration by WKC during time of use, why is there no specific catalog number for it and why is it not listed in the catalog as an option? The second question I would ask is why would WKC not simply rivet the runes in place in the same manner they riveted the gold and silver eagles and swastikas in place? The third question I would ask is if they offered this sword in silver why not indicate it in the catalog since they indicate they can supply silver or gilt eagles?

I go on the three strikes and you are out theory when I buy expensive swords. The question you have to ask yourself is did this sword leave the WKC factory in this configuration or did someone simply set some runes and black enamel in the already recessed langet of this sword and then silver plate it after the war? Swordfish has mentioned his views on these swords and Wags has addressed your question concerning prior owners. I would fully agree with them. It is your money and you can spend it on whatever you care to. I would not buy either of these swords for my collection.

[Ed Sunday]

IN the innercircle of the top collectors and dealers it has allways been known these swords were HIGHLY SUSPECT ! If you want a genuine sword ,the one I mentioned previous is the REAL deal! It is rough but no doubt GENUINE !

[SwordFish]

You should post the question at GDC in the sword section. Not to minimize WAF, however, GDC has a section which caters more exclusively to sword collectors who may have a little more experience with these particular style sabers. Just a suggestion.

To reiterate, I wouldn't touch these. Legitimate or not. Like I said, they will be very difficult to move in the future once you need to free up capital.

Yes, there are period photos of SS man carrying lionhead style sabers with the raised and enamled sigrunes. So certainly some did exist. Problem is, many people attempted to recreate these particular pieces post-war.

[hixxy 1]

ss fuhrersaabel No 1013

The sword in question is listed in the WKC catalogue. If this sword did belong to Barry Brown there is no question of it being correct. Barry is most probably more knowledgeable than most of the major dealers on SS daggers and swords. Every one is quick to put down the silver lion head swords.That is because they know very little about them. They are the highlight of any SS collection. We can all keep buying 33s and show them on the forum, everyone says great buy. Put a silver sword on and you are Quick to put it down. New member to the forum but collecting for over 20 years.