100% Original, 100% NOT MINE!

[Waffen-Mike]

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">Thanks Ron for the correction on the dagger and Larry as for your suggestion, the vet's family does indeed have my number and I will of course stay in contact with them over the years. One question however, do you all think my assumption is correct regarding the dagger in question, that Sauckel recieved this as a honory item? I have read that in September of 1936 Sauckel was "awarded" the SS Honor Dagger from Himmler, but have found no reference to this dagger. What are your thoughts? Thanks again

Best Regards
Mike


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Just a small note: The dagger is not red cross, but rather social welfare.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

[Gerd Becker]

Hi Mike,

the rest may be ok, but the Medal bar is for sure not 100% original. Firstly it has a golden Motherscross mounted on it, thats impossible, as long as he didn´t give birth to 10 Childs The rest is a very unusual combination as well, i guess, not impossible, but highly unlikely.

I don´t know, what the Medalbar makes in that lot, as the rest looks good with my limited experience, but i am sure, the Medal-bar is in this combination impossible.

Just my two cents...

best regards,
Gerd

[Waffen-Mike]

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">Hi Gerd

The mother cross was actually loosely tied to the medal bar and was never originally a part of the bar itself. I looked at the bar very carefully and have no concern with it, or its construction (I guess I should have taken more pictures of it, including a picture of the reverse). The vet remembers finding the bar this way (i.e. with the MC tied to it), but admitted he is 89 years old and could be wrong. I tend to believe his story, as he was very sharp throughout our time together and often times could remember dates of actual events he experienced. As for the combination of the medals, I didn't find it that strange. For example, after reading a little on Sauckel, I found the lack of combat experience exhibited in the medals consistant with the man, as he was never a front line soldier. This is just an honest grouping from a vet with a fantastic and somewhat different WWII experience I wanted to share with the forum. Thanks
Best Regards
Mike
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Hi Mike,

the rest may be ok, but the Medal bar is for sure not 100% original. Firstly it has a golden Motherscross mounted on it, thats impossible, as long as he didn´t give birth to 10 Childs The rest is a very unusual combination as well, i guess, not impossible, but highly unlikely.

I don´t know, what the Medalbar makes in that lot, as the rest looks good with my limited experience, but i am sure, the Medal-bar is in this combination impossible.

Just my two cents...

best regards,
Gerd

[Billy G]

Mike,

Great grouping and great vet story, I hope it all translates into a purchase for you someday. It might only be my limited opinion but I don't think someone like Sauckel who allegedly received an SS ehrendolch would have been given an honorary Red cross dagger. I suppose it's possible but in the event he did receive it, the dagger would likely have some sort of personalization or presentation on it, do you know if the dagger's blade or reverse langet had any sort of inscription?

I agree with Gerd that there's no way the mother's cross is original to the bar and that the combination of medals on the bar in addition to the mother's cross seem out of place. I can see the KVK sans swords but not the Luftschutz either. I know I'm late with the info but I was saying it the entire time reading the thread

Ron,

Do you mean the dagger os Social Welfare or the hangers? I agree with the hangers but aren't the so called Social Welfare daggers the ones with round instead of rectangular eyelets for hanging straps? Great dagger either way.

[DonC]

GREAT thread! My comment on the medal bar is that it may very well be original, but I have to wonder if it was Saukel's - he joined the party in 1926, so would have been entitled to a 15 year NSDAP LS award, assuming that they were still awarded in '41. Sauckel was interned during WWI in France as a merchant seaman, so the Hindenburg Cross w/o swords is a possiblity, as is, of course, the Luftschutz medal and the WMC w/o swords.

Regardless, I love to see posts like this that show that stuff is still out there!

Don

[Gerd Becker]

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">Hi Gerd

The mother cross was actually loosely tied to the medal bar and was never originally a part of the bar itself. I looked at the bar very carefully and have no concern with it, or its construction (I guess I should have taken more pictures of it, including a picture of the reverse). The vet remembers finding the bar this way (i.e. with the MC tied to it), but admitted he is 89 years old and could be wrong. I tend to believe his story, as he was very sharp throughout our time together and often times could remember dates of actual events he experienced. As for the combination of the medals, I didn't find it that strange. For example, after reading a little on Sauckel, I found the lack of combat experience exhibited in the medals consistant with the man, as he was never a front line soldier. This is just an honest grouping from a vet with a fantastic and somewhat different WWII experience I wanted to share with the forum. Thanks
Best Regards
Mike
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Hi Mike,

that explains a lot. Without the Mothers-cross its a more likely combination. So then this was a 4-place bar originally or was another award on that place, where the MC is?

I never thought, the vet told you storys, with 89 its sometimes difficult to remember. But i just don´t get a warm feeling, when i see that bar. Do you remember, what the color on the back was? The NSDAP-LS-Awards were awarded to higher Officials in the Party, as far i understand it.

But that bar doesn´t make this find any less fantastic. I am sorry, it didn´t end in your collection, but the fact, that the son takes it, is a little comfort, isn´t it?

best regards,
Gerd

[Waffen-Mike]

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">Hello Billy G, DonC and Gerd

Thanks to all of you for your comments. As for your questions, I will try to answer them all at one time. Take a closer look at the bar, it is pictured best in photos 1, 2 and 3. The Hindenberg Cross is still attached to the bar (the MC sits on top of it and thus covers most of the HC in the pictures), but the HC still can be seen especially the ribbon. Again, the MC was never apart of the original make-up of the bar, but was clearly tied to it by a 3rd party sometime after its original construction. I can't recall for sure the color of the cloth on the back, but it may have been a light or soft looking green-brown. I will try to take additional pictures at a later date and therefore apologize for the current pictures. To be honest, I had no reason to doubt, nor do I now, the originality of these items therefore I didn't take close ups or the reverse of many of the items like I usually do. Again, thanks for looking.

Best Regards and Merry Christmas
Mike
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[phosphateb]

I have never seen such a dagger as the social welfare...the scabbard on it blows me away! great find. have these ever been for sale?

[tinmantis]

Mike, great stuff, great story
I know how this loot haunts you, it haunts me too! Can't believe I missed the chance to see his other dagger when I was out of town!!!
keep up the pressure, you'll get it!
regards
jon