kaltenbrunner sword

[Marvin]

Well Chris, I am starting to understand where you are coming from. I took the post at face value. I deleted the letter from Mr. Moses as requested and ask for a contact but no reply. However, since PMing him and receiving no response I myself I am beginning to wonder.

[Bob Coleman]

Two thoughts,

1) I thought one of the reasons that folks paid experts for evaluations and COAs is also that the expert would stand behind what he says, not say "Me no intrested in that kinda sht nomore"

2) I have no idea who Houstan is... but maybe the poster aint really Houstan? People signing up for a single thread always makes me scratch me head mon.

Chris-
I have known Bob Moses for over fourty years. He was a selective collector of the rare and important. He has sold his collection and is now pursuing other interests. I have always found him to be a collector of the highest integrity. He has no obligation to respond at this point. I know that he withdrew from the hobby due to the proliferation of high end fakes. For Bob, it was no longer any fun.
All of us develop a certain way to write and phrase. I have read many of Houston Coates postings over the years and have no reason to doubt he was the individual who posted the remarks.
As to this sword, I feel that only a hands on examination by an advanced collector and/or dealer will tell the truth about this piece. What can be derived from images is limited.
With such a big name item, I am curious as to the provenance of this piece before the recently deceased collector obtained it.
Bob

[N.C. Wyeth]

Marvin,

Houston is very well known in your locale. Most all OVMS members will know him by name and reputation, and most computer-aged edged weapon collectors will know him from GD.com. I would feel comfortable in saying that Houston Coates has spent many years handling Third Reich blades of many types, and although he may not have been granted the popular level of public advertising as an "authority" might have, he should certainly hold an extremely high level of consideration for the amount of personal experience he has attained through many years of pursuing his personal Third Reich edged weapon studies.

You have some professional background similarities in common with Houston. He lives within ten minutes of driving distance from our neighborhood. I still think you can even look his name up in the local phone book. If you still have difficulties contacting him AFTER THE HOLIDAYS (he is probably out of Town), look me up again and I will send you all the information I have available for contacting him. You really should be in personal contact with him - for nothing else other than to at least hear one experienced opinion of Third Reich blades IN GENERAL. I would trust Houston to at least offer an educated opinion, and then possibly to offer you valid direction in where to obtain further help as required.

This blade is a piece that will create a large sum of interest and attraction, especially if it truly is authentic in it's prospective claim. Don't give up hope in finding the answers to everyone's question(s) here. I am looking forward to knowing theses answers myself. You really have chosen a difficult task in presenting this piece to everyone for public opinion, and I wish you good luck - you're going to need it with all of the public willing to offer that opinion! Let me know if I can help you in any manner . . .

Your Neighbor,

Brad

[Larry Lipps]

Ler's keep in mind that we're in the middle of the Christmas holidays and a lot of people are out of town. I am, and Houston may be as well. While I haven't checked lately, Houston was the bayonet forum moderator over at GD. Marvin, I'd suggest you try and PM him there as well to confirm that he actually made the post here if he's available. As was previously stated, Bob Moses completely liquidated his collection about five years ago and no longer dabbles with militaria. I don't know if this sword may have come from Bob Waits estate or not, but I know Bob used to have about 10 of these that he always displayed at the MAX. I'm certain Houston will be at the SOS and this can certainly be cleared up then. It is still my suggestion that a couple of qualified collectors personally examine and provide an up to date authentication. In all actuality since the previous owners have either left the hobby or are deceased, it doesn't much matter what their opinions were. All that matters at this point is whether or not this is an original sword.

[Frogprince]

Houston has a very well established reputation which he has earned over the period of many years and is very knowledgeable in many areas. As I said previously I don’t know Mr. Moses or what he specialized in. All of us have areas where we have more knowledge than in others. Having said that, I think it’s accurate to say that no one is omnipotent having complete knowledge about everything.

Even some of the largest, best known, most authoritative, dealers/collectors/others occasionally already have or acquire a fake/altered item which is not a legitimate period piece. Either in their collections or offered for sale. Some of these items have been in circulation for many years and were not determined to be fakes until the right individual - who had the right expertise - took a look at the item.

From time to time some of these pieces are exposed for what they are on the different forums as postwar creations. If they have just been purchased and were presented for comments, the more well thought of sellers usually quietly return the purchaser's money ending the matter, with minimal damage to their reputations aside from the fact that they were fooled.

Tony brought up some valid issues where he has doubts having presented specifics along with his line of reasoning. I have problems with the timing/provenance. I also have a specific recollection of a particular faked item that was sold by one of the best known names in the field of German blades. A presentation piece one of the problems that it had was in the area of its provenance. Which someone who is a well known authority in another area besides blades quite correctly pointed out. My point being that whoever ultimately does look at this sword, to determine if it is genuine or not, should look at all of the evidence not select bits and pieces. FP

[Houston Coates]

Hello again-As I said I would be glad to discuss the sword with the OWNER. If he wants to know the whole story all he has to do is ask. IMO at this time it is no one else's business. I do find it rather absurd that some people would make such assumptions based on these poor pictures. I have seen the sword . I see no reason to debate with those who have not. Just for example--"The Himmler signature does not match". Blade etches with signatures are made from overlays. Is there only one original overlay? Does a person's signature change over the years? Are special order blades all the same? Is everything in books correct?

[Bob Coleman]

Hello again-As I said I would be glad to discuss the sword with the OWNER. If he wants to know the whole story all he has to do is ask. IMO at this time it is no one else's business. I do find it rather absurd that some people would make such assumptions based on these poor pictures. I have seen the sword . I see no reason to debate with those who have not. Just for example--"The Himmler signature does not match". Blade etches with signatures are made from overlays. Is there only one original overlay? Does a person's signature change over the years? Are special order blades all the same? Is everything in books correct?

Houston-
Well said and nOthng more seems necessareY.
bOB

[Skipper Greenwade]

I have had a request (via PM) to close and Cellblock this thread, but will refrain - for now.

I'm doubtful that anything substantive will come from this thread because, when dealing with a piece of this nature, there is smply no way in hell anyone who has not seen the sword 'in person' or handled it can render an honest opinion re: originality, and certainly cannot/should not offer advice to the select few among us whio might be a serious interested party with respect to actually purchasing the sword when/if it is offered for sale.

I respect Houston Coates' character and his opinion - IMO both are above reproach. Since he is one of the few responding here who has actually seen the sword, I agree that the best path forward is for the owner to discuss it with him at the S-O-S.

Skip

[Houston Coates]

Thanks Skip and all others who have supported my position here. I just feel the owner has the right to first hand information. He may then decide to tell everything about his sword -or not. It has a very interesting history going back to the beginning of the hobby-about 50 years+

[Marvin]

The 'owner' has asked me to assist him. I sent a PM to Houston with ALL the information necessary to contact me and he chooses not to reply for unknown reasons. He apparently does not respect the 'owners' wishes to have me act as the contact person. I think this is suspiscious myself. I took HIS WORD that Mr. Moses doesn't want to be involved. I agree with Chris. When someone writes a letter of verification, they should be willing to stand behind it. I will re-post the letter as this Houston isn't mentioned in the letter and I only have his 'post' and no word from the author. Again, I agree with Chris. The author wrote the letter of his own volition on his own letterhead. If this Houston is real, why not respect the owners desire to have some act in his stead? He, according to himself, acted in the stead of Mr. Moses requesting contact information to be pulled. There is no proof of this, just his post. The owner is providing me with a photo album of other items that Mr. Moses purchased from his relative. I will post these upon receipt. If Mr. Moses sold his collection perhaps Mr. Houston is a buyer? I will be out of town for a week. The owner is leaving the photo's at my office. The owner of the sword feels that his relative was not given a fair price for the items as they were not active in collecting. I was going to discuss the 'private concerns' of the owner with Houston if he contacted me, but he has chosen NOT to. Because he feels his relative was not dealt with fairly, he has asked me to assist him. I would rather meet person claiming to be Houston and claiming to have knowledge about this sword to discuss the details of the sword etc if he is willing especially since I live in Amelia and he is supposed to be from Loveland. I could go on with my concerns etc but I will stop here. Thanks for your input Chris. Marvin

Hello again-As I said I would be glad to discuss the sword with the OWNER. If he wants to know the whole story all he has to do is ask. IMO at this time it is no one else's business. I do find it rather absurd that some people would make such assumptions based on these poor pictures. I have seen the sword . I see no reason to debate with those who have not. Just for example--"The Himmler signature does not match". Blade etches with signatures are made from overlays. Is there only one original overlay? Does a person's signature change over the years? Are special order blades all the same? Is everything in books correct?

[Larry Lipps]

Like Skip, I don't see this thread heading in a positive direction. While Marvin may well be representing the owner, it's against forum rules to do so on the estand. I know for a fact that Bob Moses left the hobby with no intention of returning and would be surprised if he would be willing to discuss this in any fashion. For Houston to offer any assistance is a coutesy he is not obligated to perform. His desire to speak only with the actual owner, doesn't seem unreasonable to me. If this thread begins to degenerate, it will be closed.

[Bob Coleman]

[quote=Marvin The owner is providing me with a photo album of other items that Mr. Moses purchased from his relative. I will post these upon receipt. If Mr. Moses sold his collection perhaps Mr. Houston is a buyer? I will be out of town for a week. The owner is leaving the photo's at my office. The owner of the sword feels that his relative was not given a fair price for the items as they were not active in collecting. [/quote]Marvin

Marvin-
Allegations such as this are not fair to all involved. Who is to say what was a fair price on a deal reached years ago? None of us were present during the negotiations and frankly, it is none of our business. Posting any of this information would be unfair to all involved as there is no manner in which the information can be confirmed. To do so would indicated some possible vidictifness or agenda on your part. May I suggest that the best way to handles this is to contact Houston at the SOS. This Forum is not the place for private agendas.
Bob

[Skipper Greenwade]

This Forum is not the place for private agendas.

Well said...thread closed