kaltenbrunner sword

[Marvin]

???

[Ron Weinand]

Bob Moses

I know Bob quite well and this letter is not his style nor up to his standards or wording. Also, the question is: If this is Bob's letter, why no pictures attached and is this the same sword as delinated in the letter? Where is the notary seal and signature?
Bob has slowed down in collecting and I have not seen him at shows for the past couple of years. He used to attend the SOS in Louisville and the MAX Show and had tables.
In my opinion, as Bob was a lawyer, someone has taken a letter with his letter head and altered it. Is the letter a copy or an original?
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

[Frogprince]

As I said earlier I don’t know Mr. Moses. But the fact that he is held in high esteem by some knowledgeable folks would indicate to me that perhaps the paperwork for the sword is not legitimate.

I recently had a somewhat similar ‘paperwork’ experience. In the market for a U.S. Navy “Trophy” rifle I found an individual who had not one but two examples in beautiful condition complete with paperwork. Trying to figure out which Garand was going to go home with me - in looking at the paperwork it dawned on me that the paperwork was absolutely identical except for the different serial numbers.

Somebody had been very busy. And it was not immediately apparent to me that the paperwork was not original as some care had been taken to make it look right. FP

[Marvin]

I know Bob quite well and this letter is not his style nor up to his standards or wording. Also, the question is: If this is Bob's letter, why no pictures attached and is this the same sword as delinated in the letter? Where is the notary seal and signature?
Bob has slowed down in collecting and I have not seen him at shows for the past couple of years. He used to attend the SOS in Louisville and the MAX Show and had tables.
In my opinion, as Bob was a lawyer, someone has taken a letter with his letter head and altered it. Is the letter a copy or an original?
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Well, before I would even consider entertaining a claim of forgery, I would rather consult the supposed author first. Forgery of this magnitude would be a serious felony. Those that know the alleged author, assist in contacting him please and ask him to contact me. I can PM anyone my info if they reach him b/4 I do. Thanks in advance and Happy Thanksgiving!

[Marvin]

Thank you!

[Marvin]

I have placed a call to Mr. Moses and left a message for him on his voice mail. I explained briefly the discussion, left my contact info, and the web address of this site. Sorry for the delay in attempting to contact him but with the holidays and family illnesses, surgeries etc I have fallen behind in a lot of things. I will stay on this. Marvin

[Frogprince]

Marvin, Thanks for the update. I hope that everything works out. As for Mr. Moses I am interested in anything that he might bring to this discussion to possibly shed some light on the sword and its provenance.

Also, to set the record straight - In looking at image #21 again with the larger screen of my desktop I am coming around to the idea that Tony may be correct with the scabbard being covered in what would have to be a very thin layer of some kind of leather. Instead of a bad repaint. In any event, the apparently textured surface of the scabbard is not typical of period SS scabbards. FP

[Houston Coates]

Hello-To the current owner of this sword. I was a good friend of the collector who owned this sword until his death a few years ago. I knew him for many years and know all there is currently known about the sword and its origin. I held it many times but not for a few years now. I am always at the OVMS shows which are local and also attend many of the larger shows. I would be glad to meet with the OWNER and will impart the information I have to him. He can easily make contact with me as I live in the same area-Loveland, Ohio.

I will say that the blade on this sword is the most beautiful and spectacular piece of workmanship I have ever seen. It was centainly made by a master of the art of damascus or under his direct supervision. IMO it is NOT a fake. The photos don't do it justice at all. I won't discuss the other aspects of it here but will discuss them with the owner. There are a number of explanations for its non textbook construction.

Bob Moses is also a friend but is now out of military collecting and no longer has an interest in discussing any aspect of it. He objects to his name and contact information being published here and does not intend to respond to any questions. He requests his contact information be removed ASAP. For the record, the letter that he wrote a few years ago for the family of the deceased collector and published here is genuine and was written in good faith at the time.

Houston Coates

[N.C. Wyeth]

Houston!

Surprised and pleased to see you chimed in on this one! I had a feeling that you might know a little more about the background of this blade than we've heard about so far. I'm just as equally surprised to hear that you don't already own it by now as well!
It will be interesting to hear more info from you as time progresses . . . .

You may want to contact Marvin - he has some occupational similarities with you that really prove the "Small World" theory.

I am really enjoying the progression of this thread - can't wait to see more from everyone posting!

See you at the Show(s) Houston, and looking forward to hearing more from both yourself and Marvin as well!

Brad

[Frogprince]

It seems that I was wrong about doubting that the letter was legitimately from Bob Moses. With Houston vouching for the letter’s authenticity stating that it was written in good faith for the estate of the now deceased original owner. Who was a good friend of his, along with being a friend of Mr. Moses.

Having no direct basis for comparison it’s still not clear to me when the blade was believed to have been forged or etched. But in any case it would seem that the photos did not do the sword blade justice insofar as the quality of the workmanship of the Damascus. With it apparently being crafted by someone very skilled in making Damascus steel which regrettably is hard to tell from the images (no complaint there as I myself more often than not have problems taking good pictures).

If the rationale. Or rationales, for explaining the construction details/anomalies and (Third Reich) provenance are not up for further discussion so be it. Respecting the prerogative of those who have earlier physically handled the sword to take the discussion as they know it out of the public arena. FP

[Tiger 1]

With all due respect to Houston Coates. I am still not convinced that this blade is genuine TR era produced. Trying to square Houston's endorsement of this blade and what is presented in the pictures posted so far is still a stretch IMO.

Let's look at the piece in question and not the story.

I ask that you compare the Himmler signature in post #16 with any Himmler signature on known genuine Himmler daggers and Honor degens shown in Wittmann's book on SS edged weapons. Some details are glaringly incorrect.

First, the last few letters of Himmler's signature on this degen do not match any of the other known genuine etches of his signature. I'm not too wild about the structure of the two H's either. Don't take my word for it , look for yourself. Check the large fold out photo of the SS Honor degens following page 526. There are eleven Himmler signatures shown there and not one matches the one posted here.

Secondly, the positioning of Himmler's signature on the blade is poorly placed. The bottoms of both H's in the signature run off the edge of the blade. This type of etch placement error would not be acceptable in a common etched bayonet. Why would it be acceptable on such a rare degen if it is indeed genuine. I refer you to Techet's book on etched bayonets for further info about etch placement and quality. Look it up.

I respect Houston's knowledge and his comments but I have my doubts about this degen for the reasons stated before and the two further ones presented here. I'm not closed minded about this but there are some serious inconsistancies that are quite easy to see.

I suggest that some very clear pictures of the blade etches and the damascus pattern would be in order to further discuss this unusual degen.

Tony

[Marvin]

Houston, I sent a PM. Please let me know. Marvin

[Tiger 1]

I'm a bit surprised that there is no further discussion or comments on the Himmler signature discrepencies? Interesting.

Tony

[Marvin]

I am a bit surprised that Houston has not contacted me after I sent a PM and deleted the Moses contact info as he requested.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Two thoughts,

1) I thought one of the reasons that folks paid experts for evaluations and COAs is also that the expert would stand behind what he says, not say "Me no intrested in that kinda sht nomore"

2) I have no idea who Houstan is... but maybe the poster aint really Houstan? People signing up for a single thread always makes me scratch me head mon.