new Jacobs! SS dagger

[Frogprince]

One more attempt to load the image. FP

[The Red Baron]

In this day and age, that guide to grading is certainly subjective, just looking at what I see around on various sites.

Yep.

[Frogprince]

In this day and age, that guide to grading is certainly subjective, just looking at what I see around on various sites.

I get the point, but think that the statement should probably be reversed. Subjective is more based on personal opinions, interpretations, points of view, judgments etc. Objective is fact-based, measurable, observable etc. LTC Thomas Johnsons system I think could be argued as an objective Dagger Collectors Version of the NRA Antique Firearm Conditions Standards a portion of which is posted below:

“GOOD: Some minor replacement parts; metal smoothly rusted or lightly pitted in places, cleaned or re-blued; principal letters, numerals and design on metal legible; wood refinished, scratched bruised or minor cracks repaired; in good working order.” Objective standards IMO the basis of what TMJ wrote versus unverified (and possibly bad /false) subjective opinions. Or the “lipstick on a pig” approach that at different times some have been known to use. FP

[BobI]

I stay away from advertising based on condition, I do so because it is subjective. I do like to tell people the percentage of "whatever" finish, polish or what I am describing. Between my description and pictures returns are very, very rare for me. I have seen obscenities on buyer and seller side when the word "mint" has been used! When talking about a dagger like this, to most it is a SS dagger, cool enough! However, for some of us that are beyond cure that maker mark on the reverse side is what you are paying for. Why? I wish I knew and could cure myself and others!!

[usmedalman]

Beautiful dagger. You should be very happy with the opportunity to add this to your collection. One thing to keep in mind with grading is that these daggers are pushing 90 years old and I doubt that the original owners treated them with the intent that they remain pristine for a century. So, we are going to find all sorts of "damage" or "flaws" resulting from treatment by the original owners and liberators of these pieces and how these have aged over the years. I think the market factors in these things that impact the condition of the dagger when pricing. A dagger considered "good" in 1970 will probably be rated higher today and even higher in another 50 years.

[itchyjoe]

Beautiful dagger. You should be very happy with the opportunity to add this to your collection. One thing to keep in mind with grading is that these daggers are pushing 90 years old and I doubt that the original owners treated them with the intent that they remain pristine for a century. So, we are going to find all sorts of "damage" or "flaws" resulting from treatment by the original owners and liberators of these pieces and how these have aged over the years. I think the market factors in these things that impact the condition of the dagger when pricing. A dagger considered "good" in 1970 will probably be rated higher today and even higher in another 50 years.

Nice compliment and your assessment on grading is spot on. Following the LTC's austere system would mean almost all advertised pieces are over-graded and should really just be called "good" at best. The actual mint daggers are locked away in collector's safes like IRAs only to be sold during a financial apocalypse..or to help pay for that new Porsche!

[inimicus]

per frogprince and b.james re scabb, anodizing a very different thing than paint, and this is the latter IMO

[Victorman]

Following the LTC's austere system would mean almost all advertised pieces are over-graded and should really just be called "good" at best.

What is wrong with a dagger graded "good"?

Yes, it should costs much less than the same one graded "very good" , "excellent" or better...

But if you decide to use a grading system that is clearly described and uses objective criteria, like this one introduced by Tom Johnson, than you SHOULD apply it correctly! Otherwise simply don't use it, there is no obligation!

If not... what is the grading really based on? The mood of the dealer at the moment? The profit he would like to make on the piece?

How can one verify if the grading was done correctly, if the objective, clearly described criteria are not respected?

Would you buy a car, that is advertised with a 150 horse power motor, but who maximally produces 60 hp when you drive it?

That is exactly the same problem and it would simply be called... fraud!

Best regards,

Victorman

[Frogprince]

I stay away from advertising based on condition, I do so because it is subjective. I do like to tell people the percentage of "whatever" finish, polish or what I am describing. Between my description and pictures returns are very, very rare for me. I have seen obscenities on buyer and seller side when the word "mint" has been used! When talking about a dagger like this, to most it is a SS dagger, cool enough! However, for some of us that are beyond cure that maker mark on the reverse side is what you are paying for. Why? I wish I knew and could cure myself and others!!

Bob, I think yours is a much better approach and as a German arms collector one that I respect. Besides its own grading system, they also endorsed what is called the “Percentage of original finish system”. Not an in-house published standard from them, there is an independent publication used by both collectors and dealers so that both the buying and selling parties have a clearer idea of what is being offered - with a corresponding pricing system. They also understood that percentages can be used for refinished items. Something that could be used/modified - and for example would be appropriate with a variety of items that were reworked during the TR period - and for buyers and sellers could be backed up with some really good photos so that everyone is 'on the same page'. Regards, Fred

[BobI]

Thanks Fred! Honestly, I just like to know when I mail something out to someone it will not come back. This has been the best way which also keeps everyone happy! Bob