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**Lenny W** · 12-16-2018, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Persson83 View Post

The funny thing here is that the guys that has have my cap in their hand are 100% sure of it.
It would be the end of their company if they was selling fake. I trust them to 100%.

As long as your happy with your new cap that's all that really matters

**Lenny W** · 12-16-2018, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by giorgio View Post

Hi,
very interesting thread.....
forgive me if I ask......not my field....
are the pull down loops stitched threw the caps side panel considered a "giveaway" of repro or you can find them on original ones?
Regards
Giorgio

Giorgio a feature found on both originals and fakes,so no real tell there

**B. N. Singer** · 12-16-2018, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Persson83 View Post

The funny thing here is that the guys that has have my cap in their hand are 100% sure of it.
It would be the end of their company if they was selling fake. I trust them to 100%.

Sir,

You purchased a high end fake hat.

Believe as you will but those who know better realize your misfortune.

B. N. Singer

**PZKG** · 12-16-2018, 02:34 PM

By those pictures you can't really tell anything Mr. "expert"!

**Glenn McInnes** · 12-16-2018, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by PZKG View Post

By those pictures you can't really tell anything Mr. "expert"!

I would watch your comments unless you would prefer a long vacation.

Do you really think this is the first time any of us have seen one of these hats?

Glenn

**90th Light** · 12-16-2018, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Lenny W View Post

I still don't know why the original poster isn't posting detailed pictures of The Whole cap

As I understand it, the cap was sold quickly after Military Antiques Stockholm got it in their shop. They did not have time or need to make detailed pictures due to the speed of the sale.

The only way detailed pictures can now be made is if the cap is returned to the shop in Stockholm.

The buyer does not appear to live in Stockholm so who will pay the bill to post the cap both ways ?

To justify this cost in terms of money and time. Both the vender and the buyer are asking for a more detail of potential problems they are to look for beyond initial impressions, collector folklore and gut reaction.

I do not see that as an unreasonable request if I or anyone else commenting here was expected to pay the bill, post it or photograph the cap in detail,

Chris

**giorgio** · 12-16-2018, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Lenny W View Post

Giorgio a feature found on both originals and fakes,so no real tell there

Thanks Lenny...

regards
Giorgio

**galizien41** · 12-16-2018, 07:42 PM

This makes no sense. Just makng up excuses for not posting photos. The new owner is an association member. Take some photos and post them. Why would he need to post back to atockholm?

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

As I understand it, the cap was sold quickly after Military Antiques Stockholm got it in their shop. They did not have time or need to make detailed pictures due to the speed of the sale.

The only way detailed pictures can now be made is if the cap is returned to the shop in Stockholm.

The buyer does not appear to live in Stockholm so who will pay the bill to post the cap both ways ?

To justify this cost in terms of money and time. Both the vender and the buyer are asking for a more detail of potential problems they are to look for beyond initial impressions, collector folklore and gut reaction.

I do not see that as an unreasonable request if I or anyone else commenting here was expected to pay the bill, post it or photograph the cap in detail,

Chris

**90th Light** · 12-16-2018, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by galizien41 View Post

This makes no sense. Just makng up excuses for not posting photos. The new owner is an association member. Take some photos and post them. Why would he need to post back to atockholm?

I take it that you have read the entire thread ?

And in particular post number 75. Here is a slightly abbreviated version which gets to the crux of the matter;

Originally posted by Hasse.M View Post

The Three Pictures Anders started this thread with was enough to outright deem the cap as a FAKE. There is no full Picture from the lining. No Picture from the stamp inside. Not one from the bill or any Close Pictures from sewing details. IMO its impossible to say its either 100% original or FAKE from the Pictures provided.

I have told Anders, we can refund you for the cap right away.
Or we can have the cap discussed in full detail here. But if he want this thread to go on he has to send the cap back to us so we can take all the Pictures needed In our photo studio.
But I also told him, about my creepy feeling. It does not matter what the Pictures show's. For some guys here the cap will be declared as a FAKE. Since they are not here to discuss the cap at all..

The cap was stated as a fake from the first Three Pictures. Then please tell what makes the cap a CLEAR FAKE. Then no need to take any more Pictures..

For us at Military Antiques with a combined very long experience in the crew. There is nothing to beat a hands on inspection. Even good clear Pictures can misspresent an item. I Think all of you who was photographed your own Collection can agree how different and often bad the result can be. Especially when it comes to cloth! Its very hard to photograph an item to show wear and dirt, cloth shiftings and minor variations. Often we got something offered over internet from Pictures, the item either look much better in hand or worse!
Sometimes we have been sure about the originality of an item from the Pictures provided but then when we have it in hands, without a doubt the item was not good. And sometimes the other way around!
But to judge an item from Three rather long ranged Pictures without any specific details. We would never do it.
.

The full version is there for all to read,

Chris

**galizien41** · 12-16-2018, 09:36 PM

Sorry, I still don't get it. Why do the photos HAVE to be taken in Stockolm's studio? Anyone can take decent enough photos and post them. Just sounds like an excuse to me. Just my 2 cents.

**90th Light** · 12-16-2018, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by galizien41 View Post

Sorry, I still don't get it. Why do the photos HAVE to be taken in Stockolm's studio? Anyone can take decent enough photos and post them. Just sounds like an excuse to me. Just my 2 cents.

Personally, I think the quality of the photos posted here on WAF to gain opinions/ experience is very important.

I have lost count of the number of threads where shocking photos have been posted. Something is declared bad. Then better/ clearer images are posted and it is declared right. Makes fools of the experts if they make the wrong call based on bad images then have to back track blaming the photos.

If you want opinions/ experience then there is duty to post good images.

No one can accuse Military Antiques Stockholm of not doing an excellent job on the photos they post on their site. It is only fair that the item be judged by an excellent level of image,

Chris

**Tim O'Keefe** · 12-21-2018, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by Persson83 View Post

The funny thing here is that the guys that has have my cap in their hand are 100% sure of it.
It would be the end of their company if they was selling fake. I trust them to 100%.

Hi Anders,

We were all novice collectors at some point. You simply can not trust any dealer 100%. They are there only to take your money, nothing else. & No they will not go out of business for selling fakes or messed with items as originals. None have so far. Peter is a good guy but he has made mistakes in the past, like every dealer. He sold the cap to you without posting proper photos is clear.

Why don't you take some photos and post them here on the thread ? You got a phone right ? Seems very unnecessary to have to send the cap back to the dealer for photos ?
If was my cap i would send it back and get a refund as there will always be doubts about this cap from experienced collectors. Just not from some of the dealers

I used to take chance's on item's when i was less experienced in collecting. But after getting burned an SS Pz M43 now only add one-look originals to my collection. Especially if approved by Mr Singer

with kind regards
Tim

**jacquesf** · 12-21-2018, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post

Hi Anders,

We were all novice collectors at some point. You simply can not trust any dealer 100%. They are there only to take your money, nothing else. & No they will not go out of business for selling fakes or messed with items as originals. None have so far. Peter is a good guy but he has made mistakes in the past, like every dealer. He sold the cap to you without posting proper photos is clear.

Why don't you take some photos and post them here on the thread ? You got a phone right ? Seems very unnecessary to have to send the cap back to the dealer for photos ?
If was my cap i would send it back and get a refund as there will always be doubts about this cap from experienced collectors. Just not from some of the dealers

I used to take chance's on item's when i was less experienced in collecting. But after getting burned an SS Pz M43 now only add one-look originals to my collection. Especially if approved by Mr Singer

with kind regards
Tim

Wise words, been there, felt the pain and bear the scars. J

**BenVK** · 12-21-2018, 05:31 AM

I have to chip in here because it's something that a lot of forum members don't seem to understand.

As Chris said, good quality images are a must and makes authenticating these things so much easier, sometimes! lol

However, there is such a thing as photos that are too good.

Military Antiques Stockholm have an in-house photo studio set up by a professional. In terms of clarity and brightness, the images are fantastic but can and do give a false impression of the true condition of fabrics. Areas of wear and tear, staining etc show up very clearly in their photos and the result is that everyone here thinks it's fake ageing. I've discussed this with Peter in the past and he's aware of the problem but he told me that there's nothing they can really do about it.

Ironically, some quick snaps taken outside with a phone camera can sometimes result in a more accurate picture which is closer to how the naked eye sees these things.

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about.
I bought this cap from Peter despite having a few doubts about the grime and stains. It looked a bit contrived in their photos. In the flesh, the cap looked completely different which was a very pleasant surprise and any doubt I first had about it instantly disappeared.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=794344

Back to the Pz cap in question.
I really can't blame the OP for not wanting to take his own photos and post them here, can you? What happened here with this cap and the M44 jacket wasn't pleasant at all and several members were suspended because of it.

If it helps, I'll put myself out there and offer to have a look at the cap in person.
I've got no allegiances to anyone so it will be completely unbiased. Plus I'm really keen to get to the bottom of this whole SS Trap cap situation if possible. It's gone on long enough now and despite my repeated request for those who were witness to all the alleged fake ones appearing in the early 1990's, no one has ever come forward to shed any light on that which is seriously disappointing.

**90th Light** · 12-22-2018, 04:57 AM

Originally posted by jacquesf View Post

Wise words, been there, felt the pain and bear the scars. J

These wise words should also be added to this thread;

Originally posted by BenVK View Post

Fundamental common sense rules of collecting this stuff

Those rules are:

Judge the item and not the seller.
Don't judge the item by association with the sellers other items.
Judge the item when you've got it in your hands, never judge from photos alone.
Base your judgment on your own knowledge and research, don't blindly accept the opinions of others.

And I will add to it, always get two opinions from at least two different quarters of the square,

Chris

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