Opinions on Cap Piping

[Waffenreich]

Good afternoon gents,

I bought this cap from Walter Dudgeon about 20 years ago and at the time he said it was Nebelwerfer, but I always thought it looked more like the Carmine piping of the veterinary branch. The strange thing is that depending on the light, the shade varies and it does look like a plum color, almost like early Nebel piping.

I'm 99.99999% confident it is Veterinary (not general Staff) and wanted to just fish for a few opinions to see if at first glance when compared to different shades across the pink to bordeaux-red spectrum that you agree.

I've included pics of a Panzer Abwehr EM/NCO hat, Artillerie Officcer, and Nebelwerfer EM/NCO for comparison.

So, what do you think - Veterinary??

Thanks for your time in looking at this and I appreciate all comments.

vr

Bob

[Waffenreich]

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[Waffenreich]

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[Robert Shoaf]

i see the carmine color of the general staff & veterinary sevice.
However, those side vents give me pause; could this be a re-badged feuerschutzpolizei cap?

Bob Shoaf

[Waffenreich]

those side vents give me pause; could this be a re-badged feuerschutzpolizei cap?

Bob Shoaf

Bob,

Thanks for coming on and dropping a comment.

I've had original portrait postcards of Heer EMs wearing visors with side vents, and I also had an early tellerform Heer Pionier officer's visor with them so I have no problem with these on early Heer caps.

Regards!

Bob

[TWS]

Nice caps!

IMO due to dye lot variations among manufacturers, discerning between General Staff and Veterinary can be more subjective than definitive.

Just me, but the way I look at it is if a carmine-piped cap comes with provenance whereby the wearer's branch is known, then it can be stated 100%.

Angolia and Schlicht were the "bible" when I was growing up and according to them the darkest carmine was GS and lighter was Veterinary.

Halcomb and Saris simply list them both as "carmine" and seem to draw no line between them.

I recently was pondering the same dilemma on what to label some of my caps, so I have photos already handy. Shown is my Nebel cap which does it's best to try and appear brown-piped in photos but is actually more Bordeaux Rot in person, my "Veterinary" (lighter carmine) cap with the metal cockade, and my "GS" (slightly darker carmine) with the embroidered cockade. But I put my labels in quotes as I don't consider them absolute.

I also consider the side vents to be unusual but I am not a dedicated headgear collector and there are much more knowledgeable members here than can shine some light on them I'm sure.

Btw, I bought a pair of shoulder straps from Walter just a few weeks ago.

[stonemint]

I vote Carmine.
Caps with vents existed, but are rare to find.....

[solo]

In my screen is carminio

Carlo

[TWS]

Oops, I didn't catch that carmine was ever in doubt. I thought Bob was on the fence between Vet/GS. It's definitely carmine on my screen.

[Waffenreich]

Thanks for all of the comments gents.

Todd, you are correct - I have always felt it was Carmine. Being that it's an EM/NCO's hat makes it for the Veterinary branch based on my research over the years.

The problem is that when this hat is exposed to different light sources the hue of the piping changes to almost Bordeaux with a hint of blue in it. It's really bizarre and it's the only hat I've ever experienced this with.

Thanks again guys, appreciate you taking the time to comment.

vr

Bob

[BenVK]

I also see carmine but it's a beautiful cap regardless of the exact shade.

Would like to see some closer images of the vent eyelets if possible.

[stonemint]

I gotta admit, I never heard that there was a different shade of Carmine for General Staff vs Veterinarian--is that mentioned in any primary sources?


Also, I vaguely recall that someone once posted an EM/NCO visor that was stamped to the General Staff--does anyone recall that one?

[jacquesf]

Thanks for all of the comments gents.

Todd, you are correct - I have always felt it was Carmine. Being that it's an EM/NCO's hat makes it for the Veterinary branch based on my research over the years.

The problem is that when this hat is exposed to different light sources the hue of the piping changes to almost Bordeaux with a hint of blue in it. It's really bizarre and it's the only hat I've ever experienced this with.

Thanks again guys, appreciate you taking the time to comment.

vr

Bob

Bb, I have a set of oberst shoulder boards that causes me the same dillema. I have made peace that it is closer to Nebel than GS, but who knows?. J

[TWS]

I gotta admit, I never heard that there was a different shade of Carmine for General Staff vs Veterinarian--is that mentioned in any primary sources?


Also, I vaguely recall that someone once posted an EM/NCO visor that was stamped to the General Staff--does anyone recall that one?

I too wonder if Angolia and Schlicht waded through Heeresverordnungsblaetter until their eyes crossed or if they just asserted a difference based on something else.

It would be neat if we can turn up some carmine-piped enlisted items that have provenance to serving with the Generalstab. Surely they had NCO's and lower enlisted personnel working in the complex at Wunsdorf/Zossen. All those staff officers cannot be expected to make their own coffee and sketch their own map overlays, drive their own cars and answer the phone.

[jacquesf]

I too wonder if Angolia and Schlicht waded through Heeresverordnungsblaetter until their eyes crossed or if they just asserted a difference based on something else.

It would be neat if we can turn up some carmine-piped enlisted items that have provenance to serving with the Generalstab. Surely they had NCO's and lower enlisted personnel working in the complex at Wunsdorf/Zossen. All those staff officers cannot be expected to make their own coffee and sketch their own map overlays, drive their own cars and answer the phone.

JohnnyR gave a nice detailed explanation about how carmesine piping was worn by lower rank, drivers em nco insupport of the GS. It was done officially. J