M43 cap with a puzzle to solve

[DKNYC71]

but lower ranks were very quickly released. J

Absolutely not true, and indicates how little you know about historical facts. Many EM/NCO's were detained in POW compounds/camps, especially in Germany for well over a year. There were many different factors after the war which dictated detainment and/or POW incarceration: sector where captured/surrender , army group which accepted the surrender, local military allied government, etc... A blanket un-informed statement like this is simply ignorant.

[jacquesf]

Absolutely not true, and indicates how little you know about historical facts. Many EM/NCO's were detained in POW compounds/camps, especially in Germany for well over a year. There were many different factors after the war which dictated detainment and/or POW incarceration: sector where captured/surrender , army group which accepted the surrender, local military allied government, etc... A blanket un-informed statement like this is simply ignorant.

Really, if you want to go into the subject and historical facts. Read below.

The thread is about the hat and what possible happened with it. A possibility is somewhere in this "factual" scenario. Careful with the insults you throw about.

" Detention after the end of war:

Under the Geneva Conventions, PoWs are to be sent home within months of the end of the war. The Allies instead decided to hold many PoWs (redesignated "disarmed enemy forces") as slave laborers, providing "labor reparations" to rebuild the damage inflicted by Nazi aggression. In the West, the demands of France were considered especially compelling -- the Germans had held millions of French PoWs as slave laborers, besides stripping France to the bone. After screening the PoWs, releasing the old men and boys of the "Volkssturm," and detaining Nazis for prosecution, the USA transferred 740,000 of the remainder (including some of those shipped back to Europe from the USA) to France . 1,000,000 German Pows remained in US camps in Germany at the beginning of 1946, but only 38,000 were still left at the beginning of 1947. The Western nations sent their last German PoWs home in 1948 (often under US pressure), while the Soviets kept theirs as late as 1956.

In the spring of 1945, when the US held 3.4 million German PoWs, Britain held 2,150,000 . Many were shipped as slave laborers to Britain, where 400,000 still remained at the end of 1946 . As a general rule, the ones in Britain were treated decently, in contrast to many in France."

[DKNYC71]

Really, if you want to go into the subject and historical facts. Read below.

The thread is about the hat and what possible happened with it. A possibility is somewhere in this "factual" scenario. Careful with the insults you throw about.

" Detention after the end of war:

Under the Geneva Conventions, PoWs are to be sent home within months of the end of the war. The Allies instead decided to hold many PoWs (redesignated "disarmed enemy forces") as slave laborers, providing "labor reparations" to rebuild the damage inflicted by Nazi aggression. In the West, the demands of France were considered especially compelling -- the Germans had held millions of French PoWs as slave laborers, besides stripping France to the bone. After screening the PoWs, releasing the old men and boys of the "Volkssturm," and detaining Nazis for prosecution, the USA transferred 740,000 of the remainder (including some of those shipped back to Europe from the USA) to France . 1,000,000 German Pows remained in US camps in Germany at the beginning of 1946, but only 38,000 were still left at the beginning of 1947. The Western nations sent their last German PoWs home in 1948 (often under US pressure), while the Soviets kept theirs as late as 1956.

In the spring of 1945, when the US held 3.4 million German PoWs, Britain held 2,150,000 . Many were shipped as slave laborers to Britain, where 400,000 still remained at the end of 1946 . As a general rule, the ones in Britain were treated decently, in contrast to many in France."

This is truly funny, your post above only validates my point, read it a bit more carefully.

[jacquesf]

This is truly funny, your post above only validates my point, read it a bit more carefully.

Having a bad day?

[DKNYC71]

Having a bad day?

Not at all mate, just find it a bit bothersome when individuals make ludicrous postulations (farmers hat) and incorrectly state historical facts. Other than that, all good pal!

[jacquesf]

Not at all mate, just find it a bit bothersome when individuals make ludicrous postulations (farmers hat) and incorrectly state historical facts. Other than that, all good pal!

Pal, as an obvious well informed historian, care to actually venture an opinion or factual statement about the cap that is the subject to this thread? J

[DKNYC71]

Pal, as an obvious well informed historian, care to actually venture an opinion or factual statement about the cap that is the subject to this thread? J

I most certainly did pal, reference my earlier post on this thread: an M43 cap worn and customized by a German Army POW in captivity.

[jacquesf]

I most certainly did pal, reference my earlier post on this thread: an M43 cap worn and customized by a German Army POW in captivity.

Oh that was you? What a brilliant and insightful post. You should share your brilliant insight more often pal. J

[Lostwith]

Not trying to be funny, alot of hats were stripped of insignia per regulation and worn as civilian items in post war Germany. POW worn as indicated is also a possibility, but lower ranks were very quickly released. J

I don't think that lower ranks were quickly released. At least, not from Russian's gulags. All insignia were removed, and cap was worn I suppose, as POW's garment. It seems to be nice cap of one of those who were released in late 50's, after Adenauer's mission. All this embroidery was possiby made in the prisoners camp. Very nice piece of someones history. Much more love such items, than those minty, never used, just taken from depots.


Regards

[DKNYC71]

I don't think that lower ranks were quickly released. At least, not from Russian's gulags. All insignia were removed, and cap was worn I suppose, as POW's garment. It seems to be nice cap of one of those who were released in late 50's, after Adenauer's mission. All this embroidery was possiby made in the prisoners camp. Very nice piece of someones history. Much more love such items, than those minty, never used, just taken from depots.


Regards

My sentiment is the same about thie cap. If you reference my initial post #6 in this thread. I had observed an almost exact cap in procession of a vet who guarded prisoners immediately after the war and served as part of the US occupation force. A POW had given him this cap as a keepsake and memory of him upon departure.

[Lostwith]

.../ modified in the camp to indicate his home/place of origin in Germany.

I fully agree with you. That was for indication. Possibly he was far away of his home that time, and wanted to show for other lads from the camp where he lived. That was much easier to give support, some help, to find friends this way than, when someone was completely anonymous. And it looks, that cap was very long worn, but respected.

[BenVK]

Ok Pals! chill out! lol

Not entirely sure what you're arguing about but ok, let's say a farmer embroidered it post war. Why though? to show other farmers in his region that he's from Munich and proud of it? Nah, doesn't make sense.

Also, I was born and raised in the countryside and know that farmers will wear the same hat for 20 plus years until it literally falls apart. They will then swear and moan about spending money on a new hat.

This one I bought is POW embroidered IMO. And that makes it rather interesting I think because as previously mentioned, when you're in am allied POW camp containing thousands of soldiers and not in the best of conditions (a topic for another day) then it makes sense to me that you want to meet with others from your home town.

[BenVK]

Heartbreaking image, just kids, so young but already removed the traps from their caps and eagles from their tunics.

[jacquesf]

Nice pictures, one guy is still wearing his awards. Back to the cap, someone's oma could have embroidered it after the war. It sure is possible.

But I believe the POW theory wins the day. However a lot of pow's did farm work ?

[OSS]

The cap is most likely POW embroidered imo. Here is a well known example painstakingly embroidered by a DAK POW; these men had a lot of time on their hands and usually used themes involving pride of their military service or place of origin.