Wehrmacht M41 Tropical Cap, opinions needed

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Chris

The first link is what you wished for. An original Rittman Herr tropical cap with its factory applied insignia. Insignia application just like Robt. mentioned. Both caps are good, & a little expensive

cheers
Tim

[90th Light]

Hi Chris

The first link is what you wished for. An original Rittman Herr tropical cap with its factory applied insignia. Insignia application just like Robt. mentioned. Both caps are good, & a little expensive

cheers
Tim

Yes I noted how the eagle and cockade have been factory sewn on Tim.

There is also an excellent study of KM & WH "HPC", "RB-Nr. 0/0520/0017" billed tropical cap differences on that site at the moment;

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/89/...n__263889.html

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/88/...n__263888.html

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/99/...n__263899.html

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/27/...n__216027.html



Worth looking at in conjunction with this thread; http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...thoff+Coesfeld

Chris

[RGD51]

This gets even more intriguing, Helmet Weitze also has a WH billed tropical cap by this maker for sale.

However, the font of the RB number stamp is nothing like the ones shown on this thread. And unlike any other that I have ever seen.

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/28/...n__260728.html

Note that there is no date ???

The cap does look to be original. It would be interesting to know why such a difference in the makers stamps ???

Chris

p.s. this one is interesting too because it is a WH tropical cap with the false flap, made in the style/ form of billed KM tropical caps by 0/0678/5015

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/29/...n__260729.html

Gotta to love those prices for later model billed tropical caps and wish him luck in today's market

Really interesting hats. I had wondered if there were any Heer trops with the false scallop, seems that's been answered and duly noted how previous gaps in knowledge get filled in in a rather kinetic way thru the world wide web.

Robt.

[NZMark]

Interesting indeed. I've owned at least three Mayser late m40's - all 43 dated, all standard. When in 43 did the false flap example get produced...?
It's insignia is certainly re-applied.
Here's one of my old ones.
Mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Yes I noted how the eagle and cockade have been factory sewn on Tim.

There is also an excellent study of KM & WH "HPC", "RB-Nr. 0/0520/0017" billed tropical cap differences on that site at the moment;

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/89/...n__263889.html

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/88/...n__263888.html

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/99/...n__263899.html

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/27/...n__216027.html

Worth looking at in conjunction with this thread; http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...thoff+Coesfeld

Chris

Hi Chris

Thanks for the links, very nice study of original HPC tropical caps along with the link to the fake HPC thread here on the WAF.

Here is a link to a thread on the Afrikakorps Forum that has both a Herr and a KM example from HPC. The Herr M40 still has its original factory applied cockade.

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/viewtopic.php?id=1643

thanks
Tim

p/s Here is a link from the same site with a Hans Brandt "beehive" sidecap dated 1142 with a Cav soutache (added post war) thought you would enjoy it

https://www.weitze.com/militaria/05/...e__263205.html

[Lodsworth]

possible alternative maker for RBNr. 0/0678/5015 cap etc.

I have photos of a M40 tropical cap — I think off this forum but I don't have the link — with this number and the name Johann Vogl stamped on it. It seems to have a single line of stitching on the underside and pretty standard zinc/ brown enameled eyelets. The photos aren't that clear but the stitching of the insignia could be zigzag. There is another cap with the 0/0678/5015 number in Figueroa's headgear book (page 21). Eagle and cockade are zigzag stitched, though the latter looks a bit dodgy.
With these new posts, I now have photos of eight or nine ok-looking 0/0678/5015s. 3 are numbered like the Weitze one. These all have two widely spaced rows of stitching on the underside of the peak. Two have standard eyelets, one what looks like zinc on the outside and steel on the inside. All three have zigzag stitched eagles, 2 straight machine stitched cockade and one very rough zigzag stitched cockade. 5 (including the Vogl) have the stamp highlighted here. All these have a single line of stitching on the underside of the peak and three standard eyelets (the others are the steel and steel and zinc ones shown here). The Figueroa and one of those shown here have zigzag stitched eagles, as possibly has the Vogl. The last has a slightly different stamp again, a single line of stitching on the underside of the peak. I can't really see the eyelets and the insignia looks replaced.
Any views on all this?
How does this square with Tim's attribution of 0/0678/5015 caps? Have we got two or more manufactures or manufacturers using the same number? Or is there some informed faking going on? I don't think this topic has run its course quite yet.
Mike

[RGD51]

At face value having an RB number and name is strange as that's not usually the way authentic caps are done. Informed or uninformed faking is always possible in todays scheme of things, and quite possible this particular topic still has legs. There are days when we think were learning something only to be back to square 1 when contradicting info pops up.

Robt.

[Tim O'Keefe]

I have photos of a M40 tropical cap — I think off this forum but I don't have the link — with this number and the name Johann Vogl stamped on it. It seems to have a single line of stitching on the underside and pretty standard zinc/ brown enameled eyelets. The photos aren't that clear but the stitching of the insignia could be zigzag. There is another cap with the 0/0678/5015 number in Figueroa's headgear book (page 21). Eagle and cockade are zigzag stitched, though the latter looks a bit dodgy.
With these new posts, I now have photos of eight or nine ok-looking 0/0678/5015s. 3 are numbered like the Weitze one. These all have two widely spaced rows of stitching on the underside of the peak. Two have standard eyelets, one what looks like zinc on the outside and steel on the inside. All three have zigzag stitched eagles, 2 straight machine stitched cockade and one very rough zigzag stitched cockade. 5 (including the Vogl) have the stamp highlighted here. All these have a single line of stitching on the underside of the peak and three standard eyelets (the others are the steel and steel and zinc ones shown here). The Figueroa and one of those shown here have zigzag stitched eagles, as possibly has the Vogl. The last has a slightly different stamp again, a single line of stitching on the underside of the peak. I can't really see the eyelets and the insignia looks replaced.
Any views on all this?
How does this square with Tim's attribution of 0/0678/5015 caps? Have we got two or more manufactures or manufacturers using the same number? Or is there some informed faking going on? I don't think this topic has run its course quite yet.
Mike

Hi Mike

Welcome to the Forum. While Johann Vogl is one of the tropical cap makers during the war, really need to see the cap to make a proper evaluation. Many reasons this could happen, Vogl could have been sub-contracted....i sent you an em still waiting on reply ?

cheers
Tim

[Lodsworth]

I'll try and find the link, though this may take some time.
But maybe Vogl is a red herring. Since writing this, I have read (once again on this forum), that Vogl might be a shop or dealers name and if you read the stamp in Figueroa, it does read a bit like an address
Johann Vogl
33 Eggenfelden
Mert[***]straße 20[**]
On the hat in my database, the Vogl stamp is significantly lighter than the RB-number.
Any view on the two very different cap forms with the same numbers?

[Tim O'Keefe]

The early Johann Vogl M40 in Jose's Headgear book is a one look original. Many tropical cap makers stamp have the address. So its possible the cap with Vogl's stamp & rbn# is good. Have to see the cap to be sure...

[Tim O'Keefe]

Janke repro's have been around a long time, maybe 40+ years. My initial vibe was good but 90th light's point is worth considering amidst the paranoia plagueing the hobby these days. It's possible you won't be 100% sure of its authenticity. Whether or not that is Franz Ritters RB# I don't know but-- he was a prolific maker of headgear and may well have had contracts for various branches. See what others say.

Robt.

Looking back for something else ran across this thread and quote from Ralph Heinz on Janke's Franz Ritter M40 repro's. Ralph is one of the most knowledgable scholars on the DAK. From this thread years ago...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=Johann+Vogl

Ralph post #10

"The Janke firm in Germany has used an ink stamp for years in its caps that copies an original ink stamp except that it has slanted letters (italics) and the date and size stamps are different. That stamp is four lines: "Franz Ritter vorm. (formerly) CARL ROTH Dettingen."

I've seen the original stamp in a tropical Kriegsmarine cap and the letters do not slant. I corresponded with Gary Wilkins about this ink stamp and he agreed that Franz Ritter may have bought out an older firm (Carl Roth) in Dettingen and continued manufacture of caps there under the new name. Wilkins reported a very similar stamp with "Franz Ritter vorm. H.K.FLander Minden (Westf.)" in a cap.

It may well be that Ritter bought out a couple smaller companies and added his name to the ink stamps.

For now at least, the Franz Ritter stamp with the Dettingen address that is italicized is the one Janke used or may still use. I find this disturbing -- if they are making reproductions for the reenactor trade why copy an original stamp almost exactly unless it is also meant to deceive collectors in the future? Why not stamp them with the Janke name if there is no intention of fakery?"

Thanks Ralph

[mike donne]

I'll try and find the link, though this may take some time.
But maybe Vogl is a red herring. Since writing this, I have read (once again on this forum), that Vogl might be a shop or dealers name and if you read the stamp in Figueroa, it does read a bit like an address
Johann Vogl
33 Eggenfelden
Mert[***]straße 20[**]

Here's the link:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...95&postcount=3

[90th Light]

Here's the link:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...95&postcount=3

Very interesting "Vogl" stamp indeed.

May be a case of Vogl as a distributor or sub-contracting for Vogl, to fill an order on time ?

Thank you for posting,

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Mike

Thanks for posting the link. The Vogl/rbn# cap is a one-looker original.

Here is Ralph agian on this subject.

"I corresponded with Gary Wilkins about this ink stamp and he agreed that Franz Ritter may have bought out an older firm (Carl Roth) in Dettingen and continued manufacture of caps there under the new name. Wilkins reported a very similar stamp with "Franz Ritter vorm. H.K.FLander Minden (Westf.)" in a cap.

It may well be that Ritter bought out a couple smaller companies and added his name to the ink stamps."

So Ritter may have bought out Vogl as well ? Or sub-contracted it to Vogl.

Here are the photos...

[billbert]

There Is a least 1 more manufacturer that shared its Name and RBN on its product...Billbert