Robert Feldstein DAK Cap

[TrondK]

Well, maybe this is the first of a wave of future asian produced high quality replikas. High prices on these collectables can create a monster, there are very skilled artists in china and they are plentyful. They even have "art forgery schools" over there. I saw an documentary about this last year.

The replikas they made in these places were close to impossible to detect. Many of their vases/paintings/etc even got sold on famous auctionhouses. And we are talking about very costly items here.

Yes i know everything about crappy lowbudget "made in china" products, i battle it everytime i need to buy someting down in the local stores. But i am talking about highly skilled individuals... They can sink our hobby when they get the final last details right.

Who wants to pay 5-10,000 for a SS cap when 100% correct replikas has been discovered and 200 new ss caps surfaces every month.... maybe even with a correct maker logo.



I wonder if this cap would pass and ended up for sale on a dealer site if our "artistic freinds" had got the last details, and the surname right??

[RobertE]

you make an excellent point - it pays to get it right. In this case, I'd swear someone cut up a tunic or outer garment- the material is perfect with real components added.

This is not a new fake, though. I'd say this thing is decades old, so someone was doing quality work with original materials before now.

s/f Robert

[Mark Gibson]

you make an excellent point - it pays to get it right. In this case, I'd swear someone cut up a tunic or outer garment- the material is perfect with real components added.

This is not a new fake, though. I'd say this thing is decades old, so someone was doing quality work with original materials before now.

s/f Robert

As already mentioned, this cap is exactly the same as an example sent to me a number of years ago, the only difference being the example that I have has Robert Lubstein markings. All components are exactly the same except the colour of the soutache. The components of these caps are not original and alongside a real piece of headgear by Robert Lubstein the differences stand out. The grommets are different, the officer silver piping is different and attached quite sloppily, the cockade is a fake seen on only fake caps, the red lining is markedly different and the maker markings are different to originals. The eagle looks to be okay but considering how plentiful original eagles are I'm not surprised to see an original used. I think that someone had a limited run attempting to fake these a few years ago but didn't succeed, thankfully.

Mark

[RobertE]

Yes Mark, I have original caps by that maker and I'm sure they are different. This cap is clearly a replica. Point for point with that manufacturer, this cap may differ, but the material used on the cap isn't close to original stuff, it's dead-on to DAK material.

The eagle, soustache and I suspect the grommets are original wartime, though again, they don't match RL manufactured caps based on your examination (which we are all benefiting from).

The piping is clunky and the cockade has been called out as replica, but it is posted for us to get a collective look at a very good attempt - if the name in the cap was obliterated by "wear" or "combat damage", then this could be a dangerous piece of headgear.

If someone does a keyword search on the forum now, they will find this warning - thanks for the comments, fellows!

s/f Robert

[Tim O'Keefe]

Couple more points. The grommets on this cap are not the same as those used by Lubstein. However they do look like the correct type for many tropical cap makers as Chris 90LT mentions & this is a first that i have seen a faker use this correct type. As Robert mentions this cap has been around for some time so luckily it is not a "new" fake with this type of grommet that sure appears genuine. If it were a "new" fake with these grommets then we would all be in trouble...

On this next point MarkG & i respectivly will have to agree to disagree, some fakes not all
Second point is the "red bumb cockade" which as been labeled by some as fake is not considered fake among some tropical collectors including Ralph Heinz who knows alot on this subject. Here is a thread from some time back where Ralph goes into great detail on the "red bump cockade." It has been found on different makers of original M40's & on a LW cap in collections with provenance for over 40 years now.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=335628

I agree Robert if it had a different makers mark we all might be singing a different tune

[Mark Gibson]

I've compared these grommets side by side with caps by Robert Lubstein, Carl Halfar, Lago, Emil Schebler and Schlesische Mutzenfabrik and not one match thankfully. They are very good though and without being able to compare them with the actual maker they would fool most collectors.

As for the red bump cockade show me one in an original period photo and I might be swayed but since these turn up predominantly on fake caps I have serious doubts. As for the one maker of Heer caps that you so believe to be original, it isn't just the cockade that concerns me on each of them but a number of issues including the contrived wear and lack of uniformity in the manufacture of each of them.
I'm over it.

Mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Mark

Agree, the Grommets look close to the type found on tropical caps by Hans Brandt, CW, Weissbach, some LAGO's etc. and continental sidecaps from CW & LAGO from this period. And they appear to be crimped in the correct manner as Chris 90thLT mentions

Yes the "red bump" is a tough one. Found on caps dated from 1940, '41 & 42 from Lubstein, Clemens Wagner, at least two different LAGO's and one other maker (that escapes me for the moment ?) Still looking for more examples...

over it also

cheers
Tim

[Mark Gibson]

Hi Mark

Agree, the Grommets look close to the type found on tropical caps by Hans Brandt, CW, Weissbach, some LAGO's etc. and continental sidecaps from CW & LAGO from this period. And they appear to be crimped in the correct manner as Chris 90thLT mentions

Yes the "red bump" is a tough one. Found on caps dated from 1940, '41 & 42 from Lubstein, Clemens Wagner, at least two different LAGO's and one other maker (that escapes me for the moment ?) Still looking for more examples, always learning...

over it also

cheers
Tim

I've only seen it used on some of the Clemens Wagners and a load of fake caps, no other caps. You know my opinion on the Clemens Wagner caps and I have copped alot of flak over the years for this, both online and off. This is why I rarely participate in discussions these days but today I just don't give a toss.

Mark

[msteve21]

Red Dot

FYI

Robert Lubstien M40, remove soustache, complete with a machine applied 1st pattern cockade, displays the infamous "red dot"

Mark S

[90th Light]

I've compared these grommets side by side with caps by Robert Lubstein, Carl Halfar, Lago, Emil Schebler and Schlesische Mutzenfabrik and not one match thankfully. They are very good though and without being able to compare them with the actual maker they would fool most collectors.

Mark

Hello Mark,

Based on those images, the grommets would appear to match a type used on later tropical caps with sweat bands on the billed version, RB numbers and dated late 42 & 1943.

My suspicion is that who ever made the cap that started this thread had access to a small stock of period (new ?) unused grommets. I also believe that these high quality fakes have been around for mre than 20 years, even 25 years but were only made in a low number. Some have already been faded and aged up. This one is still in mint new condition.

There is no way they are made in China today. What the Chinese produce today in the way of German uniforms is still crap and probably always will be. The dangerous fakes like this came from places like Japan when company's such as the "Real McCoy" USAF flying jackets and clothing got up and going then perfected their product copying the real thing detail by detail. They would go around the world buying the old machines and exact materials to get it 99% right. Fortunately today, there is not the interest/ money in Japan for German or WW2 uniforms like there was 30 to 20 years ago,

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Chris

This type of grommet was used on CW tropical sidecaps as early as Feb '41, the beehive examples confirm this. Also on European sidecaps from this time.

[Mark Gibson]

FYI

Robert Lubstien M40, remove soustache, complete with a machine applied 1st pattern cockade, displays the infamous "red dot"

Mark S

That is a standard 1st pattern cockade typical on early manufacture Lubsteins, not the same as the thread starter. I am very familiar with this very cap, which belongs to a friend.
I've just attached a picture of it when it was originally offered to me showing the so called red bump as actually a piece of loose thread from the red centre of a standard 1st pattern cockade. Not even close to the thread starter.
And yes Mark, I have plenty of photos of this cap as well.

Mark

[90th Light]

Hi Chris

This type of grommet was used on CW tropical sidecaps as early as Feb '41, the beehive examples confirm this. Also on European sidecaps from this time.

Hello Tim,

the CW liners were made up and ink stamped in "Feb 1941" but they sat in the bin or bins as a part until some time later in 1942 when they were assembled into the side caps, the caps finished off and then put on the train to be sent to a distribution center. What was found in the Beehive find is 1942 production,

Regards, Chris

[Mark Gibson]

Just for your information, the washer used with these grommets is smaller than the washer used by the makers that I have already listed.

Mark

P.S. I actually refer to the cockade on the cap that started this thread as the 'fluffy' cockade due to the colours of the roundel having a distinctly raised and sometimes fluffy appearance. I've attached pics of the same cockade on two seperate caps (Lago and Willy Sprengpfeil) that I have come across in the past; both fake caps.

[90th Light]

Just for your information, the washer used with these grommets is smaller than the washer used by the makers that I have already listed.

Mark

I see what you are saying Mark,

and I would not put it past the Japanese to copy the grommets as closely as they could. That is what the makers of the "Real McCoy" flight jackets did. Each generation of product got closer and closer to the real thing as they found where they could get exact parts or close to exact parts made. The manager told me that in the beginning, they used any old industrial sewing machine. Then they took a trip to the USA, bought some old 1930's machines and over-hauled them. From then on every real McCoy jacket had the exact correct number of stitches per inch just like to the 1940's. Eyelets, grommets and even zips were all made again like the 1940's and obtained from original makers after specific negotiation. Mustang leather came from the same parts of the USA that had supplied it in the 1940's. The sheep skins came from the same farms in New Zealand that it had supplied Britain during WW2. They were perfectionists about the details that they copied and that was over 20 to 25 years ago,

Chris