W-SS Officer's Visor from Wilkins book

[BaselA]

W-SS Officer's Visor from Wilkins book

These are the items that need to be debated the most in my opinion.

That is why I started this topic - with a $15,000 price tag it should turn a few heads.

Wyeth makes a valid point; I too expected a much "healthier" discussion about this cap.

The question is, how many people on this forum, not actually having a financial stake in the cap, really care about its originality? Of those, how many are able to make an informed comment? It's a very small group.

The more I look at this cap and compare it to originals, the less I like it. What TR milliner would put out a product like this?

It's like a Cadillac with a base-model Chevy interior.

[enorepap]

Hello BaselA

I agree with you that some threads, when involving very sophisticated pieces, are interrupted almost immediately and fall into oblivion. If you retrace a bit backwards, you'll see that many times, the last of them about the so-called Koch's white visor, I tried to tease dialogues to improve my little knowledge and also that of many others. After this premise: Let's go with discuss this visor, considering that on this forum it must be someone who, at least once, has seen it, touched it, examined physically it, round and round with his own hands. This visor both externally and internally is like a new, hardly ever worn, one. So the SS officer and first owner had purchased it for its undeniable beauty and then he died the next day and he was consequently buried in the Heldenfriedhof, without being able to unravel us the arcane secrets of his visor.
Based only on the photographs, I think there are no doubts about the originality of the eagle & skull (otherwise it would have since long emerged) and there are no signs about the unreliability of the fabric, velvet, pipings, buttons, chincords, etc. (otherwise, by this time, it would have already known to everyone, given the visor’s reputation). Then we go inside: no one disputes over the possibility of a lining bearing the brand name of a private producer. But here we have a lining of poor quality, attributed to a generic and unknown maker/retailer (Modern ... Mobern … Moberd ... who knows? ), but nevertheless with some fairly regular folds, though we can not see how the lining is sewn to the cap body; how old is the thread; if there are holes of a previous lining, etc. In addition, we see a very economical sweatband but it does not bear any signs of re-stitching also next to the visor’s inside. The guy had to be, in the best teutonic tradition, very clean because there is not even one of his least epidermal sign . (But I forgot that in this case, the vulgarization of the piece ... and of the price ... maybe it did a little disgust to those who believe it is possible to pay $ 15,000 for a visor. This is not for me. ) However, since here any real red flags. There is a sign in shot n.12: there is something on a fold of the lining I do not understand whether it is a stain (finally a horrible stain on this uncut visor) or a little number. In this second case?
I agree with Cody: when you do not know, it's best to just keep your mouth shut, but I also agree with you: how many are able to make an informed comment? It's a very small group. As I said, I'm not one of those, because I can not afford such a price, and I have never bought and resold visors at a phenomenal rate, as traders (and not only) do. Perhaps it would be interesting, as this visor would have a famous pedigree, to determine its history and the reasons Wilkins had to add it in his book, but I do not think this will happen because all it needs is 100% proof and life time money back guarantee for the same price as sold (not a phrase of mine). In conclusion of this long rant: there is no definitive evidence, both positive and negative. Certainly, some other images of the lining’s stitching would be of great help, especially to establish (I assume here for granted that the exterior is original) if the interior however has been reworked. I say this for pure spirit of inquiry because, in this case I think either:
Or it's an original one with some twists or it's all a first order fake. There is not, in my humble opinion, a third way.

Best regards

[PZKG]

I am not experienced in SS visors, I only have one unquestionable one and that is enough for me, but to be fair to this cap I think that if this was a Heer one it would have passed instantly.
Just a thought...

Mads

[enorepap]

I am not experienced in SS visors, I only have one unquestionable one and that is enough for me, but to be fair to this cap I think that if this was a Heer one it would have passed instantly.
Just a thought...

Mads

Hello Pz Kg

What you say is beyond all doubt, partly because an Army visor (maybe if it's only a poor, white-piped infantry with some minimal damages and little moth holes) does not cost $ 15,000, unless it belonged, at minimum, to an highly decorated officer & holder of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oakleaves in Gold, Swords and Diamonds ...

Best regards

[N.C. Wyeth]

Sometimes the silence is just too bizarre . . .

Hi Wyeth,
I wish I could add further assistance here but sometimes when you don't know it's best to just keep your mouth shut. I focus mainly on tunics--with a healthy interest in these visors--and wouldn't want to add anything that could potentially steer another collector into a wrong direction. That said, I do agree,,,it's unusual how this thread got so quite. These are the items that need to be debated the most in my opinion.

Suppose you're right, "codytrcollector" - on this one, we only know what the photos will tell us . . . and with no other examples to compare it to, probably is best practice to sit back and keep one's mouth shut - at least until more reliable information reveals itself. My apologies again, for the rant.

[B. N. Singer]

A great point. I once owned an Erel crusher that had a side seam as well. I've seen a few configured that way...The seam, by itself, as not an issue with this particular cap IMO.

B. N. Singer

[enorepap]

Not to add other irons in the fire:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=740021

Merely by the outward appearance this seems the other twin.

Also I know that this, seeing the interior, was an immaculate Clemens Wagner who received a rapturous welcome. The discussion then needlessly stalled on the eagle’ replacement, with an interesting call to another thread with two replacements at once … I realize that now I'm a little derailing from the tracks of the original thread, but this is only to demonstrate (at least I hope so) an old idea: a small market for a few close snack’s companions, where often a lot is knowing about each object, partly because, round and round, same things are always passing from hand to hand.

Not to be misunderstood: for heaven's sake, this is not the case! So, let’s go to examine this visor …

[PZKG]

Yes, in that thread I pooped on my leg, especially since it turns out that two SS caps I now own comes from Peter and are absolutely perfect in every way.
Also according to a dutch friend Peter always tries to fix it if there is a problem.

So I officially apologize to Peter for the wrong Norwegian rumours!

Mads

[stonemint]

As I said elsewhere, the problem with the hat will come down to resale--a hat with such a high-quality exterior and an EM/NCO interior is always going to be questioned.

Basel, did you request under the hood shots?

[BaselA]

As I said elsewhere, the problem with the hat will come down to resale--a hat with such a high-quality exterior and an EM/NCO interior is always going to be questioned.

Basel, did you request under the hood shots?

Agreed, stonemint - it would be a poor investment.

I did not specifically request "under the hood" shots at the time. I will try requesting them now, though. Keep in mind this is one of the "collectors connection" pieces and the dealer may not actually have it in hand (he is acting as an intermediary).

That said, this cap could be at the SOS this week. Maybe one of our members, preferably someone familiar with this thread and SS cloth headgear in general, could examine it in person?

Certainly, some other images of the lining’s stitching would be of great help, especially to establish (I assume here for granted that the exterior is original) if the interior however has been reworked. I say this for pure spirit of inquiry because, in this case I think either:
Or it's an original one with some twists or it's all a first order fake. There is not, in my humble opinion, a third way.

I'm not sure if we can maintain the assumption that the exterior is original. If it was "put together" which do you think came first - the exterior or the lining?

The sweat diamond looks to be celluloid and the logo, verdigris and all, seems convincingly aged.

[enorepap]

Hallo PzKg

Your War Cabinet's room is really astonishing

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=828073

Marcello

[enorepap]

Agreed, stonemint - it would be a poor investment.

I did not specifically request "under the hood" shots at the time. I will try requesting them now, though. Keep in mind this is one of the "collectors connection" pieces and the dealer may not actually have it in hand (he is acting as an intermediary).

That said, this cap could be at the SOS this week. Maybe one of our members, preferably someone familiar with this thread and SS cloth headgear in general, could examine it in person?




I'm not sure if we can maintain the assumption that the exterior is original. If it was "put together" which do you think came first - the exterior or the lining?

The sweat diamond looks to be celluloid and the logo, verdigris and all, seems convincingly aged.

I agree with you: the sweatshield and the lining seems to be aged. Consequently, with no well-founded evidence of the contrary, we must assume that also the exterior is original. Instead, if it turns out that the inside is not good, then I think everything is called into question and the whole visor would be an high-level fake. Not to use big words and obviously in a joking way, I would challenge anyone to tell me, just seeing the outside: do not buy it. Since many collectors, as evidenced by this very forum, before buy the item and then ask the others for a confirmation of its authenticity, if this visor is not altogether an original one, the seller certainly does a great deal. I think the ideas of having some under the hood pictures, as suggested by Chris, and also to examine it directly at the upcoming SOS will provide the only possible answers.

[PZKG]

Hallo Marcello, Thank you!

Looking a it from an investment point of view Stonemint is ofcourse right, but I never do that cause I don't care how much my wife gets from them when I am dead.

Either way, the cap is waaay overpriced no matter if it is original or not, even more if it not!

But please if anyone examines it, it will be interesting to hear the verdict.

Mads

[BenVK]

I would suggest the reason why this thread stalled is because without under the hood photos, there's not much else to try and authenticate.

However, after looking at the current photos again, I'm fairly confident that this sweatband is at best, re-sewn and at worst, doesn't belong to this cap. IMO, someone has also attempted to flatten or smooth out the sweatband with a steam iron or a hat stretcher.

Comparing it with Turbo's original cap is a mistake I think because there is nothing similar about the two caps.

Ideally, we need to find another cap with this "Modern" or "Mobern" logo to make a comparison but I've not been able to find one although the logo does look familiar to me.

[solo]

Looking at the exterior is best but not the interior,with this sweatband shoud look with suspicios
Carlo