Is Pieter V. a member here, or does anyone know him? He should be the one to chime in since he was the one that alleged it to be Koch's back in '13.
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Using that word just for you, Ralph!
I'm waiting for someone to post the information brought to light on the other forum . . . it tells more about the cap than all the innuendo currently being presented - and I think it would be very helpful.
Chris - you are participating in that discussion . . . can you bring the information over here as well?
Suppose anyone else could, if you don't feel up to it - even myself, I guess . . .Comment
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Does anyone know Pieter V.? I'd really like to hear if he is a collector on here, or is a dealer, etc. It would seem that he was passing this off as original and would like to know his sources for where this visor came from.Comment
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Honestly, I must say that this conversation can not end up in oblivion in this way. We are talking about a visor attributed to one of the most controversial subjects. I'm wrong, or there was a very similar visor on Julia's auction about three years ago? I repeat my first question: Is it possible to know the history of this visor since 1945 or is it a galactic secret
Thank you and best regardsLast edited by enorepap; 01-22-2016, 05:17 PM.Comment
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Personally I don't think provenance of any kind would persuade me of the hat's originality given that the RZM tag in the lining is a fake.
DerekComment
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the dimensions and folds are the same as on the original Koch photo. Is there a picture available taken from the same angle as the Koch photo?Comment
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Hallo Derek
I think that my post no. 10 explains clearly what is my opinion on this visor. However, I would just like to deepen the discussion. For example: I do not remember that there was a single comment on the eagle & skull originality or otherwise. It seems to me also that the historical aspect should not be underestimated. After all, it is not the visor of an infantry corporal (at least allegedly) and then it seems quite normal to me to ask about his (alleged) hardships. If (as almost always) they are not provided, it would be just another proof that it is not original.
MarcelloComment
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Visor
I know nothing about the White Visor of Koch being discussed but sure do remember checking out the one at Julias Auctions a few years ago that was sold with a Black one also, both named to the same Officer, can not recall who? And also remember one had some resto work done by Benvk. The pair sold for 70K + and had tons of provenance with them. There can not be more than a small handful of legit White SS Visors that survived.Comment
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Hallo mrcrtm
Fine. So we are talking about a visor that, if hypothetically true, would cost about 40K. Therefore it is a common ground that it deserves a very thorough discussion. Personally I think it is not original but I like to know how far someone can strain to attribute it an historically believable source, at least on paper. If it does not work well or it is inconsistent, the discussion is closed for me, as I previously wrote
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Me too, which is why I had asked about the email purportedly from Pieter V. I received a private PM from a member that Pieter was once on the WAF, but has not posted in awhile. Since it appears to be from him that this visor landed in Oakleaf's hands, I'd like more from him on the connection to Koch, or at least where he got that from. Stay tuned.Originally posted by enorepap View PostHallo mrcrtm
Fine. So we are talking about a visor that, if hypothetically true, would cost about 40K. Therefore it is a common ground that it deserves a very thorough discussion. Personally I think it is not original but I like to know how far someone can strain to attribute it an historically believable source, at least on paper. If it does not work well or it is inconsistent, the discussion is closed for me, as I previously wroteComment
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It doesn't need discussion, all it needs is 100% proof and life time money back guarantee for the same price as sold, without COA with text as IMO.
If one badly needs a visor like this for such price, he also needs decent paperwork in case things go wrong.
Some big scams going on left and right and people struggling to get their money back, it seems that a word, documents, guarantees and policies will not save anybody, so why buying stuff like this if it is a big ? from the start ?
Jos.Comment
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Spooky,
The tag you referenced is, I believe, a genuine one. It differs in small details from the one in the so-called Koch hat.
One important issue to consider in all of this is when the white tags were officially used by the RZM and when the white caps were introduced.Comment
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No, that isn't a fake tag, but it isn't the same as the one being discussed here either. Remember every minute detail much be analyzed when judging some of these things, such as the Nr. and asterisk marks which show a difference in spacing from one another.Originally posted by spooky View Post
Now before moving forward, I'll admit some of what I'm about to say has been stated elsewhere, but it's also commonsense and were my first thoughts...other than the point regarding the exterior which I overlooked at first.
The most obvious aspect that stands out about this visor is that the white tags were of early manufacturing, yet inaccurately we find it in a variant that wasn't introduced until years after it was decommissioned. Furthermore, the logo doesn't belong in such a example as--again--logos were forbidden by regulations years before these visors were introduced. And if that wasn't enough, just compare the exterior material to the few known originals and youll see that there's quite the difference.
Someone asked about the insignia: the eagle and skull are indeed original, but with such a high-end fake this shouldn't be all the surprising. I can't remember how many times I've seen original insignia on a fake article, especially with these visors. So whether they are or aren't real bears little significance to the discussion at hand.
Finally, if you're interested in purchasing this visor or truly learning something about them of real merit, don't take my or anyone else's word for what's been said...find the actual regulations. I have them plus many others saved and can attest the ones spoken of are easily found on the Internet.Comment
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