Karl Koch White Topped SS Visor

[tgn]

The RZM stamp is on the wrong side of the visor. That really bothers me. And two white tops do not a rainfall make.

Tom

[stonemint]

So, as I asked before, since you started the thread, what is your opinion on the Oakleaf cap?

[KC1]

I'm in agreement with the others. Never believe a story unless airtight provenance can be secured. Stoney has asked a very good question in "who and where has this visor been for the last 70 years?" I wouldn't touch this cap without getting some ground rules brokered ahead of time.

There is another dealer/auctioneer who does the same thing with high end items and once you learn their MO you tend to steer far away from them.

Just my $.02 -

[N.C. Wyeth]

Interesting to see what's being posted on the other site, in a topic that shares the same subject. You should all go read it. The Cheerleader asked to be paid - bearing no veil to disguise his vanity.

[rbminis]

Interesting to see what's being posted on the other site, in a topic that shares the same subject. You should all go read it. The Cheerleader asked to be paid - bearing no veil to disguise his vanity.

Do you mean the site that you got banned from for posting nothing but innuendos?
Will it ever end?

[tgn]

So, as I asked before, since you started the thread, what is your opinion on the Oakleaf cap?

I have no desire to get into a pissing match with you. I know as much about this hat as you do. From the photos it looks to be original, but I guess hands on inspections and time will tell. One thing is sure, I will never buy this hat because I could never afford it - way beyond my collecting budget.

I don't subscribe to the theory that it is too good to be real. Wonderful things turn up all the time that have been buried in collections for years, especially now that older collectors are dying off.

Tom

[stonemint]

I have no desire to get into a pissing match with you. I know as much about this hat as you do. From the photos it looks to be original, but I guess hands on inspections and time will tell. One thing is sure, I will never buy this hat because I could never afford it - way beyond my collecting budget.

I don't subscribe to the theory that it is too good to be real. Wonderful things turn up all the time that have been buried in collections for years, especially now that older collectors are dying off.

Tom

I see that I have provoked the ire of the Oakleaf groupie.

In the past 10 years you have been on the WAF, the only time I recall seeing you on the Cloth Headgear Forum is when something from Oakleaf comes up--and you are usually in defense thereof (at least until faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary).

You were not shy about giving your opinion on the SS Pekuro white-top I posted right out of the blocks. You also have a direct line to your high-school classmate, who, as I understand it, has been in the hobby as long as you have, and has been a dealer for the past 15 years (and you have posted about specifically inspecting his wares before).
Obviously, Mr. Anderson would have to either a) have it in person; or b) have inspected it in hand prior to putting it up on his site--no need to ask us, just call him.

[tgn]

I see that I have provoked the ire of the Oakleaf groupie.

In the past 10 years you have been on the WAF, the only time I recall seeing you on the Cloth Headgear Forum is when something from Oakleaf comes up--and you are usually in defense thereof (at least until faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary).

You were not shy about giving your opinion on the SS Pekuro white-top I posted right out of the blocks. You also have a direct line to your high-school classmate, who, as I understand it, has been in the hobby as long as you have, and has been a dealer for the past 15 years (and you have posted about specifically inspecting his wares before).
Obviously, Mr. Anderson would have to either a) have it in person; or b) have inspected it in hand prior to putting it up on his site--no need to ask us, just call him.

Gee, I guess I owe you an apology. I was under the mistaken impression that this forum, including the Cloth Headgear thread, was for identifying military items and discussing their originality with other collectors. Yes, over the years I have shown several items that happen to have been posted on Oakleaf Militaria's website. Each of these was an interesting item that I wanted to know more about, especially their being original or not for education purposes. And yes (oh god say it isn't so) I have even dared to disagree with you and others as to your opinions. In my world, we call that useful discussion. Either way, it was no skin off my ass as I did not own them nor had any intention of buying them. I just wanted to know what others thought.

But I was sadly mistaken. You do not dare argue with the self-acclaimed authorities on this or any other thread less you be accused of some nefarious purpose. So I humbly apologize and I won't post any items for discussion in the future. This tread can die of boredom like most of the others on this forum.

For the record, you have not provoked the ire of an Oakleaf groupie, unless you define being a groupie as paying $50-100 a year for items on his website. He is certainly not getting rich off me. In fact I have never purchased a piece of headgear from him.

And no, I have not inspected this hat in person. I do not see Kris very often, except at shows. However, the following information was recently added to the description of this hat:

From: Pieter Vebruggen
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2013 4:28
Subject: White Allgemeine SS-Visor with SS-number to SS-Standartenführer Karl Koch

To who it may concern. The following description and authentification is done to my best of knowledge and based on the information as I have today. This visor war acquired In Germany in 2011 from the estate of Karl Koch. The visor has all the aspects of a pre 1945 white allgemeine SS summer visor. Period photograph show SS-Standatrenführer Karl Koch with the white visor. Comparison with this picture and the other aspects of this visor rise for me no questions about originality and provenance. This visor is one of the few originals I know of today.

Pieter Verbruggen Keerbergen 26.12.

But I am sure you will dismiss this as being worthless hersey too. So in the end I have learned nothing from this post. I think the hat is original, you think it could not possible exist. There you have it.

Tom

[wolfslair44]

I guess we should hear from Pieter Vebruggen then. Anyone in contact with him?

[stonemint]

Gee, I guess I owe you an apology. I was under the mistaken impression that this forum, including the Cloth Headgear thread, was for identifying military items and discussing their originality with other collectors. Yes, over the years I have shown several items that happen to have been posted on Oakleaf Militaria's website. Each of these was an interesting item that I wanted to know more about, especially their being original or not for education purposes. And yes (oh god say it isn't so) I have even dared to disagree with you and others as to your opinions. In my world, we call that useful discussion. Either way, it was no skin off my ass as I did not own them nor had any intention of buying them. I just wanted to know what others thought.

But I was sadly mistaken. You do not dare argue with the self-acclaimed authorities on this or any other thread less you be accused of some nefarious purpose. So I humbly apologize and I won't post any items for discussion in the future. This tread can die of boredom like most of the others on this forum.

For the record, you have not provoked the ire of an Oakleaf groupie, unless you define being a groupie as paying $50-100 a year for items on his website. He is certainly not getting rich off me. In fact I have never purchased a piece of headgear from him.

And no, I have not inspected this hat in person. I do not see Kris very often, except at shows. However, the following information was recently added to the description of this hat:

From: Pieter Vebruggen
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2013 4:28
Subject: White Allgemeine SS-Visor with SS-number to SS-Standartenführer Karl Koch

To who it may concern. The following description and authentification is done to my best of knowledge and based on the information as I have today. This visor war acquired In Germany in 2011 from the estate of Karl Koch. The visor has all the aspects of a pre 1945 white allgemeine SS summer visor. Period photograph show SS-Standatrenführer Karl Koch with the white visor. Comparison with this picture and the other aspects of this visor rise for me no questions about originality and provenance. This visor is one of the few originals I know of today.

Pieter Verbruggen Keerbergen 26.12.

But I am sure you will dismiss this as being worthless hersey too. So in the end I have learned nothing from this post. I think the hat is original, you think it could not possible exist. There you have it.

Tom

Amazing how your own words strike a chord when directed at you—( http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hool%22&page=2 , post #24) especially when you were classless enough to kick a good man when he was down--NTZ did more for this Forum in the 6 years he was on it than you will ever do.

Second, throw out your tired old playbook—your standard defense of accusations, denials, distraction, obfuscation and deflection was stale even 10 years ago.

Third, nothing involving Oakleaf and yourself is done at arms length—here are just two examples:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...22white-top%22
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=Jerry45

Further, we can’t forget your association with Jerry45 (aka Jeff B), who disappeared after being outed on the Forum for pushing fakes (and who deleted all his posts).

Some 10 years ago, when you were defending the indefensible, you told us all how you had 80 hats at the time and owned 500 over the course of your (then) 40 years in the hobby.
I challenged you then to put your money where your mouth was and post your vast collection, and your response was that you did not need to do so to prove yourself.
10 years have gone by, and other than this thread, you started only one other, and that was back in 2007.

To believe you were just impartially posting the hat for random opinions requires the willing suspension of disbelief based upon your past history.
Quite simply, there is every reason to question your motive when you start your first thread in 9 years on a hat which is being “brokered” by Oakleaf (something you glaringly failed to mention when you started the thread).

As you yourself stated in your own post about NTZ, “respect is earned”-- and given your past actions, you have not earned my respect.

[Daniel.S]

I have no dog in this fight...

But if i really had Kochs visor with bullet proof provienice, oakleaf is the last place i would try to sell it?

Why sell something so rare on a site with so many fakes?

[juoneen]

I'm in agreement with the others. Never believe a story unless airtight provenance can be secured. Stoney has asked a very good question in "who and where has this visor been for the last 70 years?" I wouldn't touch this cap without getting some ground rules brokered ahead of time.

There is another dealer/auctioneer who does the same thing with high end items and once you learn their MO you tend to steer far away from them.

Just my $.02 -

Problem is , as much as provenance is shared here, it is still highly doubted by most,(expected) most times even when true is still not believed, the only exception is if the provenance of the item is presented by one of the Major players in the biz, as many times that factor smoke screens the normal urge to doubt.(keeping in mind on the other hand, if Sometimes found out it was a ringer tends to make a respected become from then on a suspect in this world of big money whoredom of the hobby.
Remember , we are talking strictly commercial in most cases...where items are to be sold for more than most make here in a year before taxes, as opposed to items shown with no intentions for sale.(as stated strictly for educational purpose)

Not defending oakleaf, but the past of finding so many rare items is slowly ebbing away for just one dealer to find himself without consignments,to be able to post so many rare items constantly.
Does the ss visor stamp mark always have to be on the right side, and does the sweat shield makers mark forerunner of plastic seem to appear not as stiff as period types on originals?

I think here is where oakleaf should enter ......stage left.

[BrianK]

Do we always have to have this bickering about personalities? Why not stop all the "When did you stop beating your wife?" posts and discuss the visor cap? I am 64 years old, going on 65, and would like to learn something about SS white tops before I go on Medicare.

[enorepap]

Fine. Now we know that the legacy of Koch was sold in 2011 in Germany . Since we know that Koch, who was brought to trial by the SS judge Morgen and not by the victors, is the quintessence of evil, I do not think this incident, unless there was a question of secret negotiations, have gone unnoticed in a country so attentive such as Germany. Is it possible to have proof of that sale? Who sold what to whom? I say this also considering the miserable end of Koch's widow. You should assume that certain items allegedly attributed to Koch were in possession of his heirs or other third parties. I recognize that photography seems to portray a cap very similar to what we are discussing. However, given the policy of "scorched earth" against the bad guys Koch's like, here:
or do you explain step by step what happened after 1945, or

[Glenn McInnes]

Yes,discuss the visor hat and leave the personalities out of it.








Glenn