Help with Black Panzer M43

[90th Light]

Comparison number 4

This time there is no 5 in the size stamp to compare but once again we see a difference in the spacing of the "E", the "4" and the "3" of the E43. Note also how the middle bar of the "E's" are different in the lower image it is shorter,

[90th Light]

It is interesting to note that in the lower image of post number 103 to post number 106, showing comparisons 1 to 3 that the number "5" in the size stamp of 2x 59 and 1x 58 has the same consistent shape

And in comparison numbers 1 to 4, the spacing of the "E", the "4" and the "3" of the E43 is consistently wider and comparable. In fact they could map on to each other exactly.

The "E" in comparisons 1 to 4 in the lower images appear to be consistent with all 4 having a shorter middle bar to the E,

Chris

[90th Light]

Chris,
So then acording to you, for this specific maker, would those markings have a chance to be original ?



derka

In reply to your question derka and taking post numbers 103 to 106 into account,

the stamp you show in post number 102 has slight differences to the known original stamps that I have posted images of here on this thread.

I can not say if the stamp you show is good or bad because we do not know how many stamps this factory had but there are certainly slight differences.

I note also the use of grey "Poplin" as the lining material. Again this is unusual but not impossible that some cap makers had to use Poplin in late 1944 & 1945 when they could not get artificial silk/ rayon. However, this would be first that I have seen for this maker with that RB number.

Two questions spring to mind;

1/ did this maker update their stamp from "E43" to "E44" to "E45" ? or did they just stick with "E43" for all M43 cap production in the years 1943 to 45 ?

2/ Is this a large single cap maker or LAGO/ Co-operative involving smaller makers and cottage industry ? Is there the possibility of sub-contracted production ?

It certainly raises questions for sure but the fonts on the stamps of the caps I like are all consistent in every way. The stamp you show has subtle differences,

Chris

[90th Light]

Some serious research into the matter;


"In Mollo's books on the SS he documents correspondence at the highest levels about textile shortages...of all types: wool, cotton, rayon, linen and leather. At least some of this correspondence took place before January 1943, which may have been the point where things came to a head. It was predicted in January 1943 that supplies of cotton to the W-SS would be only 15% of requirements...wool and rayon were only slightly higher at 26% and 25% respectively. It is reasonable to state that the Wehrmacht services likely made out better than this in the general competition for textiles.

The regulation for the W-SS version of the M43 is October 1943...the Heer, July 1943. But enough evidence exists that this and other items were produced and
available ahead of published orders. So...between January 1943 an October 1943, it seems reasonable that some early manufactured M43 caps used existing stocks of one of the common cap lining materials - cotton. We know rayon was prevalent in the M42 caps, but that cotton was also used. What we do not know is when stocks of cotton ran out amongst the entire cap-making industries of the Wehrmacht and W-SS, much less individual producers.

Stocks of materials used in manufacture were sometimes turned over - perhaps metals needed for the war industry, such as aluminum being a good example. However, this neither makes sense, nor seems to have been the case for textiles. Thus, stocks of cotton for cap linings would seem to have been in use until exhausted.

That all seems to make a case that some M43s made in 1943 could have used cotton for linings, to the extent manufacturers had available stocks."


Very interesting to say the least,

Chris

[90th Light]

An example of a cap with the variation RB marking that "derka" has posted and asked about in post number 102. This cap is in the collection of a very advanced collector. The lining on this example appears to be made from the acceptable artificial silk/ rayon. This version has what is known as the later type of trap machine sewn on in the correct manner for this maker,

Chris

[90th Light]

Cap number 2/ from this thread for comparison.

The points under question are;

1/ the ersatz cotton lining

2/ did this maker apply the badge in a T-shape to early production examples (Note the badge is hand applied and thus no-one can be certain when it was applied or reapplied)

Chris

[90th Light]

Comparison of the lining materials and maker marks.

Note the differences between these two stamps which are outlined in post numbers 103 to 108 ,

Chris

[90th Light]

Text-book example of cap number 2/. This cap is in the collection of an advanced collector. The lining appears to be made from the acceptable artificial silk/ rayon. This version has what is known as the T-trap applied in the trapezoid shape and machine sewn on in the correct manner that one would expect from this maker.

When compared side by side with "cap 2/" under question on this thread. The only differences found were the different sizes of the cap, the scrap material that the "pull-down tabs" have been made from, and the lining materials. On all other points compared exactly, the manufacturers foot-prints were the same.

Chris

[90th Light]

Next comparison of the lining materials and maker marks,

Chris

[brooksbz]

I believe the SS used more variety of materials in their uniform items than the army. The army seems to have made a more clear switch in 1942-43. The SS switched later and had a tendency to use materials, typically found early in the war, much later in the war. I can follow the arguement, but I find it easier not to mix SS and Heer items because they are so different the same rules do not apply. I agree that becasue of shortages, the Germans used up stocks until they were depleted.

[Daniel.S]

Here is another one CHris.

Do you still think this one is 101% correct?

[derka]

Chris,

Interesting comparizons, observations and questions.
In order to stay in the line of your search work, some pics of same points (lining, insignia appliation) on the cap i showed the stamp in # 102 :









I shall precise this cap doesn't belong to me.
derka

[derka]

Daniel,

Are markings you showed above in # 116 from this cap ?









If so, i guess we have the same pack of pics in our files.
derka

[Daniel.S]

Daniel,

Are markings you showed above in # 116 from this cap ?


derka

Yes...a fake one IMO

[derka]

Yes...a fake one IMO

I agree.