Black panzer schiffchen ( side cap) opinions please

[90th Light]

Hi Chris,

I own myself an EM/NCO private purchase black pz sidecap, with black lining, so i can admit without problem that they existed.

For the one subject of this thread, i still have doubts at his stage about it, althought the documents are convincing.
Even with the reference in one of the letters to the "schwarze képpis" (if i read correct, despite i don't know the date of its writting), there are some points i d'like to check and have more search.
Like about time sequence of adoption of the black pz sidecap and their use, and colors of piping used in those recon units.

Maybe i'm just getting paranoiac...

It's more than midnight now in France, so we'll see later.
I hope more collectors, like Bob Edwards for instance, will see this thread and could give us their opinion.

derka

I understand what you are saying derka,

I too have a private purchase panzer sidecap with black lining so as you say, there are real ones out there.

However, I see where you are coming from on this and have to agree about those little red embroidered name tags inside the cap. I have seen them on 101% originals but they are not common. I have also seen them applied to embellish both good and bad caps.

This cap appears to have had a lot of use and there are certainly some differences when compared to factory issued examples. Then again that can happen with private purchase or tailor made items.

The paper work of this grouping is fantastic but is it too good to be true by also having the original black sidecap with it ???

The black panzer sidecap officially entered service around June 1940, several Panzerwaffe were wearing private purchase examples before that. I have seen early 1940 caps made in Germany, France & Holland. There certainly was strong demand for black examples before June 1940.

Also some factory made caps are dated 1939. However, my feeling is that 1939 dated caps were still completed and issued in 1940. The liners of such caps had been made in 1939 and were sitting in the bins awaiting assembly.

I wonder what the earliest known image of a black panzer sidecap being worn is dated ???

Overall, I have to be honest and say that I like this grouping a lot and based on images alone the cap looks right. On the other hand, I agree that a hands on inspection is warranted to be sure and check the finer points,

Chris

[LuckyStrike23]

Private made caps are not automatically of a better quality ?
When you see all those original OFF feldgrau side caps privately made without vent holes and ugly cloth or normal EM feldgrau cloth ?

Yes, it should be otherwise it make no sense to me.

The difference is an officer has to buy its own cap - an enlisted men/ NCO not. Of course there were officers who spent as little money as possible and therefore bought a low budget hat.

But if a NCO buy its own hat it should be something special.

[derka]

Chris,

Few food for thoughts before going to work (i'm already late... ).

Official date of adoption for the standart black pz sidecap is marsh 27 th, 1940.
Some were probably tested in units before this date, but during west campaign in may/june 1940, most period pics show it was seldomly issued and most AFV crews wore the standart feldgrau version.

AFIK, Aufklarungs Abteilungen in an Infanterie Division in 1939/40 should have wear the gold yellow, wich replaced the rosa used before.
In case au A.A. 5, wich was raised from Kavalerie Regiment 18, logicaly the tradition about its origins would have been to keep the same color.
It became a Pz-Aufkl-Abt only in marsh 1940, and "231" in september.

Tags identification of name and especialy unit were supressed when the war started in september 1939.
Of course, in private purchase items, name tags could be found despite this regulation, but the unit ID is not common.

Of course, a good point would be to have a period pic clearly showing Claussen wearing this particular sidecap.

derka

[90th Light]

Good points derka & LuckyStrike23,

I repeat that I would be very interested to see the earliest known image of a black panzer sidecap being worn. Perhaps a member reading this might be able to help.

Also could someone clarify what soutach/ piping colour A.A.5, Pz.A.A.5 & Pz.A.A 231 were wearing in France 1940 & Russia 1941. Also this Panzerwaffe member was attached to a Lehr unit Romania and the Feldzug Balkins in the period between these two fronts.

As far as tags with both the name and unit are concerned, I know it was against the regulations but I have picked up items directly from New Zealand veterans (brought back from Afrika) which have still had such tags in place. In fact in one case the tag with name and Pz. Reg. 8 itself had been souvenired and not the item.

However, I must add that the name tags I have seen with unit have been the printed type with a zig-zag border around it. All red embroidered examples like the one that started this thread have only had a name or initials. This is the first example of that type I have seen with a name and unit.

A picture of "Claussen" wearing this cap would be the icing on the cake for this grouping. This said, I agree with derka and LuckyStrike23 that caution must be exercised here and more investigation is needed,

Chris

[pauke]

cap

A friend who was in Krad and Pz. AA units referred to the "keppi" he wore and pointed it out in some photos he showed me. He was indicating the M-43 black cap and NOT a Schiffchen. Earlier war photos showed him wearing a Schiffchen which is what he called it.

[LuckyStrike23]

you can use "keppi" for every kind of (soft) headgear except visors.

[derka]

One point wich seems odd to me is about chronology and logic.
A.A. 5 became Pz-Aufkl-Abt 5 marsh 1st, 1940.
One month before the official date of adoption for the standart black pz sidecap (Schiffchen).
We can assess when did those black sidecaps first appear or were issued, let say from end of 1939 or first months of 1940.
But i think the probability that a simple Panzeroberschütze (Claussen 's grade then) could have ordered a private purchase sidecap BEFORE marsh 1940 is very low.
Remember his unit served on guard duty on the west border from february to mid may 1940, it was not free time in Heimat.
In another words, if Claussen later ordered the sidecap as a private purchase, then he for sure already knew that the unit designation on the tag was not correct anymore : why was stiched an obsolete (and maybe used before during peace time) tag on a (then) brand new sidecap ?

derka

[kuroda]

Very interesting thread!
Apart from the fact that this sidecap is very uncommon, how is the construction and components?
I agree that more pics should be provided but it looks like a well used cap that could be legit to me...
Sorry for my bad English...

[LuckyStrike23]

But i think the probability that a simple Panzeroberschütze (Claussen 's grade then) could have ordered a private purchase sidecap BEFORE marsh 1940 is very low.

I would completely exclude that possibility. Officers are sometimes allowed to wear extravagant clothing - the higher the rank the easier it is. But for sure could no Private wear a black hat when all the other men wear field grey.

On the other hand this hat appears indeed convincing (not artificial aged) but I hate it when I have just to belief a story.....

[90th Light]

"By order HM 40, No. 429, dated 27 March 1940, two new black field caps for panzer troops were introduced, the gray-green field caps being expressly forbidden to be worn by panzer crews in their black panzer uniforms."

The order of 27 March 1941 actually came down hard on the wearing of the field- grey sidecap by panzer crews when wearing their black panzer uniform.

My understanding is that due to a lack of availablity of the black M34 caps from depots at the time. Some panzer units obtained their caps from local tailors/ factories in places like France, Holland & Germany.

Were such private purchase caps obained at a "zug" or "kompanie" level rather than specific individuals ???

Chris

[LuckyStrike23]

My understanding is that due to a lack of availablity of the black M34 caps from depots at the time. Some panzer units obtained their caps from local tailors/ factories in places like France, Holland & Germany.

I have never heard of that nor can I imagine such a procedure. A company Spieß can not simply walk into a taylors office and order hats that were not avaliable at the time. Today (and then I suppose) you have to fill in a form and wait...

[90th Light]

I have never heard of that nor can I imagine such a procedure. A company Spieß can not simply walk into a taylors office and order hats that were not avaliable at the time. Today (and then I suppose) you have to fill in a form and wait...

The German armed forces were certainly doing it for uniform items that they needed in Afrika and Italy. I have lost count of how many Italian made caps and hats I have seen over the years but have at least 4 in my collection. Plus I have a black panzer side cap made in Holland that was brought back from Italy in 1945.

Here is a quote from another thread to show what I mean;

I have also examined and photograhed a tan LW tropical cap made in Italy that is a direct copy of the army tropical cap from a maker in Napoli (Naples) and dated 1942. It has false turn up sides, a red interior and differs from army caps only in being tan and having LW insignia, however it was not an army cap with replaced insignia.

Some early LW Flak troops in N. Africa were outfitted completely with army tunics, breeches, caps, boots and even Tropenhelme suggesting the LW was caught unprepared for deployment to a tropical theater of war in 1941 and played catch up for awhile to equip its troops with a distinctive LW tropical uniform.

Tropical army caps and tunics have dates as early as 1940 but the earliest date in tropical LW uniform items I'm aware of is 1941.

Best regards,

Chris

[LuckyStrike23]

the item alone says nothing about the way as it was produced or ordered. As I said I strongly doubt that a company or Regiment has ordered uniform items by local taylors - especially not at the beginning of the war.

[derka]

If the sidecap subject of this thread has a rock solid provinance, coming straight from the family of Clausen with the documents grouping, our present discussion has less interest.
I don't pretend it is not exact, but i try to focus on the item itself, and to check in a constructive way after if the story and documents are coherent.
I have no doubts about documents shown.
I indicated why i have doubts, aside the fact it is a non standart manufacturing sidecp, but of course i can be wrong.

A.A.5 AFV's crews wore black sonderbekleidung, for instance you can find an illustration p 304 in Bob Edwards' book "Scouts out", but i can't identify for sure color of piping, yellow or rosa; maybe the author or other members will be able to clarify this point.

For the tag with unit identification, it should be noted that it is the only point avaible for us at this stage establishing a link between the sidecap and the document grouping.
I'm surprised that the sidecap would have been used by Claussen while serving on the field (considering it is a worn/used sidecap, not part of the "at home" uniform) in 2 units with a different designation.
But it could have been this way.

Last for Chris, there was certainly a shortage of black pz sidecaps avaible in some tanks units even untill Barbarossa started, so private purchase search by EM and NCO can't be excluded if they wished to follow regulations.
Just to illustrate this, 2 pics of panzer crews (6.Pz-Div) :





That said, it would be interesting if we could know the date of the letter where the "képpi" is mentioned.

derka

[LuckyStrike23]

A name tag must not necessarly go concur with the current unit. That side for example comes also straight from the familiy and is in no way altered. Note the "RAD" name tag.