Black panzer schiffchen ( side cap) opinions please

[voelender]

Hi Guy's

Can one of you tell me if this black panzer "schiffchen" is original and what would be the value ??

[voelender]

picture 3+4

[voelender]

and the last ones ,the inside

[GAMS1]

A nice cap , IMO original but not the classical issue one !
Something like a private one , without air vents also .
For an NCO, in the EM black cloth ?
AA 5 has pink as Waffenfarbe as i remember ? to be checked ...
nick

[voelender]

Thanks for the first reply
Any more info ?? What would be the value ??

[derka]

Even if private/non standart sidecaps for EM/NCO were made (seldomly than for officers), i would pass on this one, just my opinion.
derka

[GAMS1]

What's wrong with it ? i don't really see something bad ?
NCO private made ones are not common i agree , but did exist ...
nick

[LuckyStrike23]

Why should someone buy a cap that seems to be in a lower quality than issued one?

[GAMS1]

The only difference with a "text book" side cap is that the vent holes+markings are missing ?
The cloth qualiy is the same as EM side caps and the black cotton for the linning is not uncommon despite the fact it is a bit moisturized and gives this "bad" look ?
Private made caps are not automatically of a better quality ?
When you see all those original OFF feldgrau side caps privately made without vent holes and ugly cloth or normal EM feldgrau cloth ?
They were not made to upgrade the quality actually ? so why were they made so ?
nick

[derka]

This is an interesting case, particulary comparing with the grouping offered for sale.



1) First, let's see informations avaible in lexikon des Wehrmacht :

- About Aufklarungs Abteilung 5 (A.A. 5) :

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...Gliederung.htm

"Aufgestellt am 23. August 1939 in Stuttgart in Bruchsal durch das Kavallerie-Regiment 18 für die 5. Infanterie-Division. "

- About 5. Infanterie Division :

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...sionen/5ID.htm

The A.A. 5 appears in its OB in september 1939.

- About Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 5 :

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...Gliederung.htm

"Feldpostnummern ab der Mobilmachung: Die Einheiten wurden als Teile der Aufklärungs-Abteilung 5 in der Feldpostübersicht eingetragen. 1940/41 wurde die 2. Schwadron zur 1. Schwadron Aufklärungs-Abteilung 231 umbenannt."

[...]
Einheit Feldpostnummer
2. Schwadron 03494 bis 40/41
[...]
"Am 15. Oktober 1935 wurde die Abteilung in Aufklärungs-Abteilung 5 umbenannt. [...] Die Abteilung verlegte 1938 nach Eggenburg, im Wehrkreis XVII. Am 1. März 1940 wurde die Abteilung zur Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 5 umbenannt. "

2) Now avaible informations in the grouping :

- Claussen was affected in the 2 (Schwadron)/A.A.5 in december 1938 in Eggenburg :



- He was promoted october 1st, 1939 as Panzeroberschützen :



The Fpnr "03494" can be noticed for the 2 /A.A.5, wich had Panzerspäwagen.

- He served (Begium and france campaign) with this unit untill september 19th, 1940, and after in 1/Panzer-Auflkarungs-Abteilung 231 :



http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...Gliederung.htm

"Am 5. September 1940 wurde die Abteilung dann nach der Übernahme der 2. (Panzerspäh-) Schwadron der Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 5 in Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 231 umbenannt. "

Notice that the 1/Pz-Aufkl-Abt 231 used the same Fpnr 03494 untill july 11th 1941.
Claussen was killed 6 days later while serving in Russia, as member of a wagen in a Panzerspähtrupp.

So the different documents of the nice grouping are coherent IMO, and Claussen certainly could have worn the black panzer Sonderbekleidung.
But does it implies that the sidecap is a part of it ?
Discussion to follow.

[90th Light]

Given what has now been discovered about this cap and the large amount of paper-work/ photos that came with it including the Wehrpass listing units, battles and date of death;

all I can say is "wow" what a discovery

Just goes to show how wrong we can be about black linings in panzer caps and private purchase headgear.

This grouping is one of significance and its also "recon" (Pz.A.A 231) into the bargain,

Chris

[nzef1940]

I nearly pulled the trigger on this on last
night when I saw it on the e stand.

I bet it sold overnight, though it still listed

[90th Light]

I nearly pulled the trigger on this on last
night when I saw it on the e stand.

I bet it sold overnight, though it still listed

You are right,

I asked this morning if there was any chance of getting it and a reply came back quickly that it is already reserved.

I am not surprised, real history 101%,

Chris

[nzef1940]

A rare and total bargain.....

[derka]

Just goes to show how wrong we can be about black linings in panzer caps and private purchase headgear.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I own myself an EM/NCO private purchase black pz sidecap, with black lining, so i can admit without problem that they existed.

For the one subject of this thread, i still have doubts at his stage about it, althought the documents are convincing.
Even with the reference in one of the letters to the "schwarze képpis" (if i read correct, despite i don't know the date of its writting), there are some points i d'like to check and have more search.
Like about time sequence of adoption of the black pz sidecap and their use, and colors of piping used in those recon units.

Maybe i'm just getting paranoiac...

It's more than midnight now in France, so we'll see later.
I hope more collectors, like Bob Edwards for instance, will see this thread and could give us their opinion.

derka