Luftwaffe Black M43 HG

[Tim O'Keefe]

My opinion would have been the same regardless. It seems fewer and fewer knowledgeable collectors comment on these requests for opinions because they simply wish to avoid the inevitable arguments by members who have not done their homework. If I saw this cap (HG Pz. M-43) sitting on a table at a show, I would not even slow down to give it a second look.

Sorry can not comment on the cap itself. but...OSS has a very good point.

This is what is really hurting the WAF. Agree fewer & fewer knowledgeable collectors are commenting less & less. Leaving the "average" reader to draw false conclusions in some cases. Or as less knowledgeable members continue to post, more confusion reigns. Myself, am always trying to learn more, and sometimes thats takes a little bit of prodding the Old Guard

Thanks Guys

[90th Light]

There is a pinned thread on this (headgear) forum entitled "Luftwaffe M-43 Caps" where one can find numerous examples of original Luftwaffe M-43s. What percentage of these are lined in cotton twill and how many do you find marked with a size only? Are we to believe that black ones would be lined or marked differently from their blue gray counterparts? I do not expect you to accept my opinions, but I would't be surprised if that after you looked at enough (original) caps you might reach a similar conclusion.

And what percentage of the German paratroopers fighting on the on the "Gaiana River" in Italy in 1945 were wearing a LW M43 with cotton twill lining and size only which can not be found in the "pinned thread on this (headgear) forum entitled "Luftwaffe M-43 Caps" today ???

Thus if we have LW blue grey examples lined in ribbed cotton with size only from a documented engagement by the 43 Gurka Brigade & C Company 23 Battalion 2NZEF directly from the New Zealand veteran. Please explain why we can not have a black LW panzer M43 with the same lining material and marked the same way ???

I certainly agree that LW M43 caps with a cotton twill or ribbed lining are rare but they did exist. Who knows may be this one was also made by a manufacturer who also made SS M43's hence the size only marking & single button,

Chris

[90th Light]

There is a pinned thread on this (headgear) forum entitled "Luftwaffe M-43 Caps" where one can find numerous examples of original Luftwaffe M-43s. What percentage of these are lined in cotton twill and how many do you find marked with a size only? Are we to believe that black ones would be lined or marked differently from their blue gray counterparts? I do not expect you to accept my opinions, but I would't be surprised if that after you looked at enough (original) caps you might reach a similar conclusion.

And what percentage of the German paratroopers fighting on the on the "Gaiana River" in Italy in 1945 were wearing a LW M43 with cotton twill lining and size only which can not be found in the "pinned thread on this (headgear) forum entitled "Luftwaffe M-43 Caps" today ???

Thus if we have LW blue grey examples lined in ribbed cotton with size only from a documented engagement by the 43 Gurka Brigade & C Company 23 Battalion 2NZEF directly from the New Zealand veteran. Please explain why we can not have a black LW panzer M43 with the same lining material and marked the same way ???

I certainly agree that LW M43 caps with a cotton twill or ribbed lining are rare but they did exist. Who knows may be this one was also made by a manufacturer who also made SS M43's hence the size only marking & single button,

Chris

[Glenn McInnes]

Thus if we have LW blue grey examples lined in ribbed cotton with size Please explain why we can not have a black LW panzer M43 with the same lining material and marked the same way ???

I certainly agree that LW M43 caps with a cotton twill or ribbed lining are rare but they did exist. Who knows may be this one was also made by a manufacturer who also made SS M43's hence the size only marking & single button,

Chris

You failed to mention the lining "colour" which is blue as seen in many Luftwaffe M43 hats.(I have seen this blue cotton used in other Luftwaffe items)

Would you not expect to see a blue/grey cotton or rayon lining in the black HG M43 since they were produced for the Luftwaffe in the same type factories as the single button hat you posted.

Or is it your reasoning that because the lining is a tan ribbed cotton that it was contracted out to factories producing headgear for the Army because of the elite HG status?

In any case the topic HG M43 hat is nothing that I would ever consider being original.





Glenn

[OSS]

We have, of course, seen Luftwaffe caps with ribbed (and smooth) cotton linings, particularly the earlier single button with grommit type. The vast majority of two button M-43s have synthetic linings and generally with a bluish tint (and profusely marked). The subject cap and the W-SS cap you picture may well have been manufactred by the same hand. You believe them to be good, I do not. It must be an American fault to be unable to recognize these gems.

ps. I like your single button M-43 (except perhaps for the mouse bites).

[90th Light]

You failed to mention the lining "colour" which is blue as seen in Luftwaffe M43 hats.(I have seen this blue cotton used in other Luftwaffe items)

Would you not expect to see a blue/grey cotton or rayon lining in the black HG M43 since they were produced for the Luftwaffe in the same type factories as the single button hat you posted.

Or is it your reasoning that because the lining is a tan ribbed cotton that it was contracted out to factories producing headgear for the Army because of the elite HG status?

In any case the topic HG M43 hat is nothing that I would ever consider being original.

Glenn

Hello Glenn,

I do not know what the full spectrum of possible HG black panzer M43's linings is because we do not seem to have any beyond doubt examples in anyones collection to compare with.

I know clothing factories handle orders several ways. Some orders are custom stand alones, others are huge standard runs and some have to ride on the back of another larger order due to their small size. This is a basic economy of scale in clothing production.

If the cap which started this thread had SS badges on it, would there be such a problem ??? Well I would ask someone like Martin Stiles who has probably handled more SS M43's than I have had hot dinners.

The reason that I posted my FJR LW M43 from the Gaiana River 1945 was to show that there are some original LW M43's out there with a twill/ ribbed cotton lining and size marking only which are not shown on the pinned LW M43 cap thread.

Yes the twill/ ribbed lining in my veteran brought back LW M43 is blue. However, lets keep in mind that it would have been part of a far bigger production run of caps than any black HG panzer M43 might have been. The specification for such a cap always calls for LW blue grey wool where as a black M43 that a factory may already be making does not and thus an existing black cap can be adapted to LW requirement with ease.

Given what images do exist of the black HG M43's being worn during WW2. They do not appear to have made a black version of the LW trap or LW embroidered cockade for black HG panzer caps. Instead they have used an already existing item. Thus was the same production logic applied to entire black M43's being made for the LW ???

I do not know for sure and ask you who does but it makes sense,

Chris

[Glenn McInnes]

I have never seen a HG M43 that I thought was original either..I would just expect to see a more standard type of Luftwaffe lining material used (and markings as OSS mentioned) the same as what you would see in the standard 2 button type of blue Luftwaffe M43 hats.









Glenn

[90th Light]

I often also wonder just how much of the LW field grey panzer items have the LW blue linings & thread etc ???

or// are some of them simply WH examples which were period factory/ converted made for the LW ???

Chris

[OSS]

It sounds to me as though this cap is available to any collector who is shrewd enough to recognize a rare opportunity and "put his money where his mouth is".

[90th Light]

This one does not have a blue LW lining. Does that fact make it bad ???


"Ultra rare Luftwaffe issue Assault Gunners Wrapper constructed of late war wool of lesser quality. Wrapper have details which makes it a Luftwaffe issue wrapper as the place for the RBNo marking and size stampings, the fonts of the sizestampings is matching with the Luftwaffe issue Panzer wrappers, the whole wrapper is sewn together with fieldgrey cloth on the frontside and LW blue/grey as the under thread, the special belthook holes etc. It does not have the purplish rayon lining components as observed in many other late war purpose built Luftwaffe special clothing rather a grey cotton lining which is often seen in SS M43 tunic as well as SS M44 tunics. It may be a later or earlier one."

Chris

[90th Light]

It sounds to me as though this cap is available to any collector who is shrewd enough to recognize a rare opportunity and "put his money where his mouth is".

Sometimes it can come down to the price if one does not pick up any glaring red flags with the item. I took a punt on a "monkey faced" SS cuff title once. Other collectors laughed and put me down for making such a dumb and obvious bad buy.

However, I got the last laugh

I sat on it for over 10 years not knowing what I had really aquired. For the price I paid it turned out to be well worth the risk.

Not everything that is perceived to bad by certain groups of collectors turns out bad. In fact I can give you a whole list of items where this has happened, I bought something at a good price and wound up getting a small fortune off an American collector for it,

Chris

p.s. thanks for the comment on my LW M43 cap. I must get round to posting more of the vet FJR stuff. The SS M43 is 101%, you might be amazed when you know the full story on that one but I will save it for another thread.

[90th Light]

I have never seen a HG M43 that I thought was original either..I would just expect to see a more standard type of Luftwaffe lining material used (and markings as OSS mentioned) the same as what you would see in the standard 2 button type of blue Luftwaffe M43 hats.

Glenn

Agreed Glenn,

and if such an black HG M43 should ever surface that is accepted by collectors like OSS & yourself then I hate to think what price it could sell for,

Chris

[helmet guy]

I have the same type of black m43 panzer cap as your HG and the SS one posted by 90th light, the front of the flap being the same less wide type and the two buttons being closer together. Mine also has the exact same lining material and size stamp only at the back of the inside, although a piece of the lining is cut out on mine. Difference is, mine is WH panzer and has two piece eagle and cockade straight machine stitched to the front. I'd love to show it here, but I am not permitted to add attachments for now. Mine is a size 57

[helmet guy]

also, my M43 WH panzer has the exact same backing material on the inside seem of the front of the flap as the HG M43!

[Wesley's Dad]

Hats

Guys,

I appreciate the discussion and can understand the controversy and uncertainty around this particular cap. While I started in this hobby as a TR collector, my interests for most of the last 20 years or so has been in Red Army material. In that I can have a great deal of empathy for skeptics and have my own belt notches for dealing with things largely undocumented or rarely seen in North America. I post the hat because given the rest of the lot they came in, I figured it might have a shot. The photos below show most of the other headgear. Some very cool things in the mix which I have high confidence in. The former owner of all this was certainly a human, an capable of mistakes. But the caps in this pile show he wasn't exactly a rube either. Again I appreciate the discussion and anyone who feels they are tolerating this noob panzer M43 guy.