Luftwaffe Black M43 HG

[Wesley's Dad]

and...

last one...

[Wesley's Dad]

The only mark is a size 57 and would be correct in terms of being correctly sized for the cap. I might see a very faint "44" as well, but nothing else

The material appears to be the 44 and after ribbed cotton. The color is brownish-gray which is also typical. Construction seems to match those types found in other threads. Such as: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=Cotton+Liner

Sorry... meant to say that the material in the hat I posted is the ribbed cotton and NOT the linen like material you reference to 44 and later. The liner in the hat I posted seems identical to that shown in the link.

[drbill]

yep

sure looks right to me

[Wesley's Dad]

To offer a little back ground, this hat arrived to me with a sizable amount of material from a collection I have taken on consignment. Point being, there is no provenance in the source unfortunately.

There was quite a bit of other headgear in the lot, and it all looks to be fine. Most all of them are pieces that are much easier to call good than this M43... and lack the inherent controversy that a HG cap has.

The construction of the hat is why I posted to the forum. I am skeptical, but things about this one looked pretty good to me as Chris has pointed out .
Since posting , I have wondered what direction this thread might have taken if I had gone with a more "passive/aggressive" approach and shown only the hat construction and not the offending insignia arrangement.

The insignia combination is what drives most of the quick dismissal of this sort of thing, so getting any traction for a discussion is hard. I can also appreciate the fact that Chis mentions regarding the capitulation of HG's armor on the Ostfront really strangles how much we currently know about these things. So possibly not much discussion to have.

[OSS]

The construction of the hat is why I posted to the forum. I am skeptical, but things about this one looked pretty good to me as Chris has pointed out .
Since posting , I have wondered what direction this thread might have taken if I had gone with a more "passive/aggressive" approach and shown only the hat construction and not the offending insignia arrangement.

The insignia combination is what drives most of the quick dismissal of this sort of thing, so getting any traction for a discussion is hard. I can also appreciate the fact that Chis mentions regarding the capitulation of HG's armor on the Ostfront really strangles how much we currently know about these things. So possibly not much discussion to have.

My opinion would have been the same regardless. It seems fewer and fewer knowledgeable collectors comment on these requests for opinions because they simply wish to avoid the inevitable arguments by members who have not done their homework. If I saw this cap (HG Pz. M-43) sitting on a table at a show, I would not even slow down to give it a second look.

[Wesley's Dad]

M43

I can respect that. My position is not one of "look it at this hat I just bought, i'm sure it is real" This was in a lot of material I have been commissioned to sell and if it is questionable then I cannot. I'm certainly not looking for an argument, just something substantive. It tends to be useful when you are he bearer of bad news.

[90th Light]

My opinion would have been the same regardless. It seems fewer and fewer knowledgeable collectors comment on these requests for opinions because they simply wish to avoid the inevitable arguments by members who have not done their homework. If I saw this cap (HG Pz. M-43) sitting on a table at a show, I would not even slow down to give it a second look.

Well much as I respect OSS's knowledge and experience in the matter. What he is expressing is a predominant USA opinion. However, he is not the last word and one should always get a second opinion from another quarter. The opinion of adavanced collectors in Europe can be quite different. Many European collectors have equally handled panzer M43 caps from good or veteran sources

I am sure that if we went and asked someone like Martin Stiles of
"hannahsreich" then we might get a different reaction to the panzer M43 cap itself.

Martin might even agree with me that the basic M43 cap is a known SS model with that type of twill lining and size stamp. Could this be a HG black panzer M43 made by an SS contractor of panzer M43 caps as the two images below show ??? ,

Chris

[90th Light]

This type of SS M43 is often written off in the USA as not being right. Others both inside and outside the USA do not agree.

Some say we do not have evidence of the trap type being worn.

However the photos do exist but sadly like the HG panzer division, many photos were lost in 1944 & 45 or have not yet surfaced,

Chris

[90th Light]

And if they were making black SS M43's with this type of twill lining before May 1945 then why could they also not make a black HG panzer M43 ???

Chris

[90th Light]

Comparison,

Chris

[Wesley's Dad]

Hat Liner

Chris,

Thanks for the opinion and observations regarding the liner. This brings me to another question. Is there any evidence of this style liner existing in any color other than this grey/brown?

Thanks,

[90th Light]

Chris,

Thanks for the opinion and observations regarding the liner. This brings me to another question. Is there any evidence of this style liner existing in any color other than this grey/brown?

Thanks,

I would have to look into that before I could answer for sure.

Of course there is also rayon, artificial silk & HBT linings as well as the twill & linen types,

Chris

[Wesley's Dad]

Liner

Chis,

Yes, certainly aware of the other material. I was referring specifically to the ribbed cotton you are comparing to.

Thanks

[90th Light]

Chis,

Yes, certainly aware of the other material. I was referring specifically to the ribbed cotton you are comparing to.

Thanks

Yes, I realised that your question was directed at the "ribbed cotton"

I was considering the spectrum of possible colours across all the various lining materials as I formulated an answer.

Shades of grey & brown are certainly the colours that one sees most often,

Chris

[OSS]

There is a pinned thread on this (headgear) forum entitled "Luftwaffe M-43 Caps" where one can find numerous examples of original Luftwaffe M-43s. What percentage of these are lined in cotton twill and how many do you find marked with a size only? Are we to believe that black ones would be lined or marked differently from their blue gray counterparts? I do not expect you to accept my opinions, but I would't be surprised if that after you looked at enough (original) caps you might reach a similar conclusion.