Tropical Engineers Overseas Cap

[Tim O'Keefe]

I agree with Dave on two fronts; I spent 12 years in military and uniformity is, at best an illusion at the best of times. German uniforms etc. are great examples of this - just look at photos of units in the field and individual sholderboards, NCO tress etc. Wide variety of old/new etc.

I happen to know original owner of cap in question. He got it in Greece in the 70s from an old fellow who nicked it from an abandoned stores building as a kid. I highly doubt he decided, one day to add soutache and if he did I highly doubt it would have been pioniere as the value is pretty limited....

Disagree, Pioneer is one on the most wanted & rare of all units, especially in Afrika as these guys were at the speartip of the DAK. But nice story...

[Tim O'Keefe]

Chris,

The main point imo is not the strict respect of timeframe acording official regulations as an absolut criteria,but is is an indicator to keep in mind.
The question is rather if this maker and particular factory started to produce some sidecaps without soutache at least in october 42 (#18), why then november 42 dated sidecaps should present a factory appliation of soutache again ?

derka

Excellent point on CW's produced in Okt '42 with no soutache post # 18, then we see Nov CW's with soutache again ? Giles has an original bundle of beehive CW's all without soutache dated Nov '42 for sale on estand currently.....

Same is true for the HB 842 non soutached caps. There are examples of the HB caps from Aug '42 without soutache yet hundreds now with soutache dated 1142,1242 and even with rbnr's from '43....

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hello derka,

I think we are saying the same thing. Some of the collectors out here felt that they could remember bundles of caps with soutache dated "8 42" but no one could remember any with soutache dated "10 42", "11 42" or "12 42"

Now may be memories are faded over time and there were some soutached caps with later dates. In the absence of any concrete proof however, "8 42" would also be a logical cut off point for this manufacturer in terms of the regulations.

In fact it raises the question, is a cap dated "10 42", "11 42" or "12 42" without soutache worth more than one with a soutache ??? Even "8 42" is now considered "hit and miss"

Chris

A non soutached HB 842 is a proven untouched original (as is a non soutached 1042, 1142 or 1242, or one of the HB's with an rbnr from '43) so agree the non soutached HB caps are of more value historically than the HB caps with the soutache which has been added post War in almost all cases. Sad to say but true

[NZMark]

A non soutached HB 842 is a proven untouched original (as is a non soutached 1042, 1142 or 1242, or one of the HB's with an rbnr from '43) so agree the non soutached HB caps are of more value historically than the HB caps with the soutache which has been added post War in almost all cases. Sad to say but true

Completely agree with you, Tim.
Hope all's well,
Mark
NZ

[90th Light]

A non soutached HB 842 is a proven untouched original (as is a non soutached 1042, 1142 or 1242, or one of the HB's with an rbnr from '43) so agree the non soutached HB caps are of more value historically than the HB caps with the soutache which has been added post War in almost all cases. Sad to say but true

Just so I am clear on this Tim,

are you saying that there are no HB "8 42" with factory applied soutache that were found in the "Beehive" finds ?.

All original, untouched HB "8 42" do not have soutaches ?

Chris

[OSS]

I have never had great interest in tropical Heer overseas caps in general, perhaps because they weren't that popular with the troops in N. Africa (excepting tank crews) due to their total lack of protection from the sun. Naturally, the ones with soutache are even less interesting. Having said that, they have always been a nice, honest, inexpensive piece of militaria. It is sad that dealers have essentially ruined the integrity of these caps by trying to tart them up with the addition of soutaches in order to make a few bucks. The German manufacturers specifically began omitting soutaches in the summer of '42 (I have always understood that to be sometime in July) and because of that (as I said earlier) examples dated beyond that time should be viewed with "extreme" suspicion.

[90th Light]

Some of the discussion on this thread has actually missed the boat (or the train on the siding beside the "Beehives" ) when it comes to these tropical sidecaps

What is not being reported is that at least two, and maybe more, makers of DAK caps stamped their cut out red lining panels before they were stitched together to make a completed cap. This is known because of examples in collections today e.g. caps made by Gustav Thomas, in originals by this maker, you can see clearly here how the edge of the stamp disappears beneath the seam, ergo the stamp was applied to the lining before the parts of the cap were sewn together.

It is entirely possible that in the case of caps made by Hans Brandt with
a soutache and an "842" stamp could be original. In that case a cap with a
soutache that was being made in July before the soutache was discontinued
could be assembled later in August and put together with a lining had been
made and stamped in August.

Several collectors who know the Beehive find have seen HB caps with a soutache and an "842" date that were untied from the bundles of 10 caps tied together. These were original factory produced items.

Pictured below is an example of such a cap 101% original with a soutache applied before May 1945,

Chris

[90th Light]

Makers stamp in the cap shown in post number 67,

Chris

[90th Light]

Another finding which has not been reported is the caps that were reworked amongst these finds.

There were a couple of bundles of caps clearly tagged as reworked or repaired. Pictured below is an HB dated "842" which has had one of the elusive red artillery soutaches removed. Artillery red is a very hard soutache to find on any tropical sidecap and almost non-existant among the Beehive caps.

It would appear that the loops have been resewn to hold the flap up after the soutache was removed. They are basically an exact match in colour and thread used on this cap.

Chris

[OSS]

I think most of the participants in this discussion will allow for the possibility of "8/42" caps with soutache but no later, and certainly ones dated in the Autumn of '42 (like the one which started this thread) are pretty much out of the question imo.

[90th Light]

More images of the removed soutache,

Chris

[90th Light]

Another interesting things about the caps in the rework bundles is that they had all been double checked and resized. Thus they had 2 size stampings in them. Here is an image of the cap shown in post numbers 69 & 71.

Interestingly, there has been an "F" stamped over the size "55" May be this is a cross out ?

Chris

[90th Light]

Then there are the CW examples. Here is one with a 101% factory applied soutache which was put on the cap before May 1945,

Chris

[90th Light]

The stamp is hard to read for the cap in post number 73 but it is "MRZ ?" Probably March 1942,

Chris

[90th Light]

The reworked bundles were not exclusively "HB" however, There were also "CW" in there. This makes one wonder at what level the rework was being carried out.

Here is a reworked CW from such a bundle. It has a re-applied Pioneer soutache by hand ( black is another hard soutache to find for tropical sidecaps and equally almost non-existant amongst the Beehive caps). It has also been re-sized and had a damaged grommet replaced with a period magnetic example of the type found in early or pre-war sidecaps before they used the zinc version.

I will try and take a clearer image of the soutache and its application when I get a chance (or would that only help the fakers ?) . As already stated, it is applied by hand and there has been no holding back in how much soutache they have used. There is enough soutache from side to side to complete two caps. Who ever did this was over generous in their use, perhaps working fast and not worried about having enough. They certainly were not trying to fool anyone that it had not been altered.

Please note also that the soutache is the correct width for the time period and manufacturer. Plus the hold up loops have been resewn with correct period thread but a different lighter shade,

Chris