Would anybody care to venture there opinions on this item. I am confident that it is correct but I would just like to put it out there for feedback. Thanks in advance
Dave
Dave
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Sidecap looks ok.
But soutache factory applied in november 1942...
derkaComment
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Hi Derka
Thanks for the observation. I assume you know that not everything is following through in any military in the world when orders are given at the top not everything is done as like it is supposed to be. Obviously neither of us were there but I can gave you examples of even today in the Canadian military were the CDS says nobody is to wear or do X and then it is shown in pictures long after or by people who were there who will tell you they wore it or used it even though the guy at the top said no
DaveComment
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The black pioneer soutache is a very rare branch of service to get on a "Beehive" find cap. Almost all of these "Clemans Wagner" tropical sidecaps on the market today, come from the Beehive find. There are not many with black soutache.
There is a theory going around that a lot of these unissued trop. caps have had the soutaches added post war. Personally I have not seen any real evidence to support that. From the photos of the Beehive find that I have seen, they show a lot of the sidecaps with soutache. There were however, a reasonable quantity found without soutache. Many without had RB numbers.
This then leaves the question about the ones by another maker clearly marked with a large "12 42" and CW examples marked "Nov 42". Are the soutaches factory applied or post war applied ???
According to some collectors who owned bundles of these caps still tied together, there were sidecaps with these dates retaining soutaches in the bundles when they untied them.
I note however, your cap has the two top loops missing for retaining the flap in the up-right position below the eagle. That could show alteration to add a soutache after the cap was made. Again, this raises the question of wartime alteration or post war addition ???
Interestingly, I have a CW trop. sidecap that I picked up here in New Zealand in the late 1990's which is dated May 1942. It also has black soutache that has been hand applied. Again, one could automatically assume a post war addition and we will never know for sure. Several serious collectors have looked at my cap and every thing is done the way it was done on 101% veteran brought back examples with a reapplied soutache.
I am sure that you already know the stocks of tropical caps became seriously limited in Afrika by early 1942 and the ordnance personal had to pull every trick in the book to try and meet demand. This is one of the reasons why they did away with the soutache. Too often in 1942 in Afrika, they could get the right size but not the right soutache. Intially they were changing soutaches but eventually, they said "why bother"
This thus leaves two possibilities for your cap in my opinion;
1/ Factory altered to make up for some unexplained shortage of black Pioneer soutached caps and most likely found as part of the "Beehive" find.
or
2/ Post war applied to try and make the cap more desirable for resale with one of the rarer soutaches.
A final point to note, the soutache itself looks to be the narrow type ??? Would it be possible to put it beside another soutached tropical cap to compare the width,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 05-10-2013, 03:15 PM.Comment
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This is the latest dated CW tropical sidecap i've ever seen. Everything is correct including the insignia application. Except the soutache application is not correct for this maker. And that the false front has not been re-attached after application of the soutache. Can see the hole where the thread once went through. Would say its been done post War. Its possible the original soutache may have been replaced to enhance its value. Looks to be another from the "beehive" find.
Chris is correct when he states some of these caps from the beehive cache did have the soutache with the later dates in the initial discovery. Which does contradict the order of Aug '42. Confirmed by those in on the initial discovery.
The first "beehive" cache had a few hundred caps with soutache, & another few hundred without, & another 1/3 that were damaged but were valued for the insignia still.
However in the second "beehive" (railroad car) find a large number of caps without soutache were found and many of these have had the soutache added recently and very well done as well....
Perhaps this cap is from later group. But altered post War.Comment
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Seeing as we are on the Beehive find, it is probably worth adding that there were also billed tropical M40's found with soutache. A lot of the billed examples, sadly had already been cut up by the farmer. This was to use the cardboard with cloth from the bills, as insulation in the Beehives. A few however, were found and soon made their way into collections. Some of these are shown in the Schiffer book on the subject,
ChrisComment
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Thanks for the posting Tim,Originally posted by Tim OK View Post
you clarify a couple of useful & interesting points. I do not know however, if I entirely agree that the soutache is not applied correctly for CW. To my eye it seems to be their style which does have subtle points of difference from the way some of the other makers did it.
Anyway, picture worth a thousand words so here are a couple of images of a 101% example by CW to compare with,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 05-10-2013, 03:35 PM.Comment
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Beautiful cap Chris
Whats the date on yours ? Here's another CW to show you. Dated March '42
Comment
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It is faint and hard to read Tim,Originally posted by Tim OK View PostBeautiful cap Chris Whats the date on yours ? Here's another CW to show you. Dated March '42
I think it says March 42 ???
That is another thing about the cap which started this. The stamp is one of the clearest I have seen for CW. Not that it makes much difference but it is a nice clear one,
ChrisComment
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Chris is your example made in Hamburg or Braunschweig ? The example i posted is from Hamburg with the more traditional makers stamp. The thread starter is from Braunschweig, not Hamburg which could account for something ? As we have seen far less tropical CW caps from Braunschweig than Hamburg.Comment
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Nice examples of CM sidecaps - but I'm going with Tim on this one. I think the example which started this thread has had the soutache applied post-war. Amongs't the points already raised, note the thickness of the cord...not the same as the two shown in comparison, (much thinner) while it is the same as those used on the many Brandt re-soutached examples....
Just my two cents...
Mark
New ZealandComment
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Hello Mark,Originally posted by NZMark View Post
yes I agree about the width of the soutache. I mentioned that at the bottom of post 6.
I have however seen that narrow "cord" used in some rare examples that were 101% original such as my 1940 "Frankenstein" but it is certainly not common.
One question, on these post war soutached examples, have they resewn the hold up loops below the eagle after applying the soutache ?
ChrisComment
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"Hamburg" but I also have at least one from "Braunschweig" that I will look out to compare with.Originally posted by Tim OK View Post
I take your point, we really need to compare with other examples from Braunschweig which is the same factory as the one which started this thread,
ChrisComment
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