Tropical Engineers Overseas Cap

[B. N. Singer]

...With that here is the exception, An original 842 with original soutache application.... what do you think of the workmanship on the soutache ?

Thank you Tim for showing your homely, yet interesting example.

Regards, Bryon

[Tim O'Keefe]

IMO, the soutach application on this example (Recon HB) is not typical of this manufacturer; that and given the date, I would suspect that the piping has been applied post war.

B. N. Singer

That is my opinion also. Have seen a couple other HB's with original soutache applied exactly like the transport example including a Pz dated 842. Most however look alot more like Paolo's Recon example. I can see the fakers now gathered around the table, "Damn, even when we get it right, the WAF is still onto us"

& Paolo also think a thread on your very interesting 4 grommet Pz Gr cap would be a great idea...

[PAOLORUBENS]

& Paolo also think a thread on your very interesting 4 grommet Pz Gr cap would be a great idea...[/QUOTE]

a new thread on the way !!!

[Tim O'Keefe]

If anyone wants to see some more Brandt's with probable post War added soutache....just visit Dave's site. He's got at least three for sale. A nice 1142 qute similar to Paolo's 842 that has a recon soutache & one Brandt even has rbnr's from '43 and a nicely added red soutache.

Again any cap dated Aug '42 or later with a soutache should be viewed with caution imo.

[90th Light]

If anyone wants to see some more Brandt's with probable post War added soutache....just visit Dave's site. He's got at least three for sale. A nice 1142 qute similar to Paolo's 842 that has a recon soutache & one Brandt even has rbnr's from '43 and a nicely added red soutache.

Again any cap dated Aug '42 or later with a soutache should be viewed with caution imo.

Hello Tim,

who is "Dave" and do you have a link ?

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hello Tim,

who is "Dave" and do you have a link ?

Chris

Hi Chris,

Dave is the threadstarter, here is a link to his site and on page #2 are a couple and page #3 the Brandt rbnr with Art soutache from '43.

http://www.militaryantiquestoronto.com/shop.php

[90th Light]

Hi Chris,

Dave is the threadstarter, here is a link to his site and on page #2 are a couple and page #3 the Brandt rbnr with Art soutache from '43.

http://www.militaryantiquestoronto.com/shop.php

Thanks Tim,

silly me for not making the connection

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

Sorry Chris

At this point would say the untouched (no soutache) Brandt's should be more valued than the Brandt's with the added soutache which is very likely post War in most of the examples....

The non -soutached Brandt's outnumbered the few with soutache by a considerable margin for many years, but now its the other way round

[Kreager]

Very Informative thread guys, thanks for the lesson

[Military Antiques Toronto]

Hi Tim and everybody else

Thank you for your opinions. I guess I have a few things to say. Firstly anything I am selling has a 120% return policy period. I am here to stay in business not put myself out of business. I do not think I know everything nor will I probably ever. Having said that I am not sure if any of you were ever in the military but from Roman times to present day Afghanistan and perhaps Iran if it comes to it, what the regulations say and what actually happens and gets used especially during times of war does not always perscribe to the Queens Regulations and Orders or whatever countries orders you are following at that time. So I personally have no problem with this hat and like everthing, everybody is entitled to there opinions.
It is easy to be an armchair general Tim. Especially behind a computer monitor but when you actually have it in your hands it can and usualy is a different story. But again I dont know everything and perhaps you are the expert in this area. When does your book come out on third reich headgear? I wont bother responding as I am sure here it comes
Dave

[mutntcell]

Tropical Engineers Overseas Cap

I agree with Dave on two fronts; I spent 12 years in military and uniformity is, at best an illusion at the best of times. German uniforms etc. are great examples of this - just look at photos of units in the field and individual sholderboards, NCO tress etc. Wide variety of old/new etc.

I happen to know original owner of cap in question. He got it in Greece in the 70s from an old fellow who nicked it from an abandoned stores building as a kid. I highly doubt he decided, one day to add soutache and if he did I highly doubt it would have been pioniere as the value is pretty limited....

[90th Light]

I agree with Dave on two fronts; I spent 12 years in military and uniformity is, at best an illusion at the best of times. German uniforms etc. are great examples of this - just look at photos of units in the field and individual sholderboards, NCO tress etc. Wide variety of old/new etc.

I happen to know original owner of cap in question. He got it in Greece in the 70s from an old fellow who nicked it from an abandoned stores building as a kid. I highly doubt he decided, one day to add soutache and if he did I highly doubt it would have been pioniere as the value is pretty limited....

Pioneer are the unsung heros of the assault elite,

Ask any soldier who fought in Afrika, (German, New Zealand or another country). They were the vanguard, the first in who had to cut the wire plus clear the mines. They often were the first to engage the enermy and take prisoners for intelligence.

At the other end of the scale, they were often the rear guard. The last ones out. Many German veterans stated more than once that as they retreated, it was the pioneer who manned the checkpoints. The reason, once all units that could retreat in the time frame had then the pioneers would be the last ones across the bridge and had to blow it sky high, set the bobby traps at strategic crossroads or in the urban areas. Like many rear guard, they were often over-run by advancing enermy forces.

Anyone who collects soutached caps, would be naive to not value the black soutache for what it represents. Any factory black soutached tropical cap is a rare find. A faded, billed soutached M40 is worth a King's ransom in today's market.

Having said this, we have been having a discussion out here about what is the latest date that one can accept a soutached tropical sidecap from the Beehive find. Many feel that a lot of the "8 42" were factory applied but "10 42", "11 42" & "12 42" could be stretching it a bit too far.

As for when and where a reapplied soutache was added to a tropical sidecap, such as the one which started this thread. That is anyone' guess and comes down to what each individual collector is comfortable with and how much they are willing to pay,

Chris

[derka]

Pioneer are the unsung heros of the assault elite,

Ask any soldier who fought in Afrika, (German, New Zealand or another country). They were the vanguard, the first in who had to cut the wire plus clear the mines. They often were the first to engage the enermy and take prisoners for intelligence.

At the other end of the scale, they were often the rear guard. The last ones out. Many German veterans stated more than once that as they retreated, it was the pioneer who manned the checkpoints. The reason, once all units that could retreat in the time frame had then the pioneers would be the last ones across the bridge and had to blow it sky high, set the bobby traps at strategic crossroads or in the urban areas. Like many rear guard, they were often over-run by advancing enermy forces.

Anyone who collects soutached caps, would be naive to not value the black soutache for what it represents. Any factory black soutached tropical cap is a rare find. A faded, billed soutached M40 is worth a King's ransom in today's market.

Having said this, we have been having a discussion out here about what is the latest date that one can accept a soutached tropical sidecap from the Beehive find. Many feel that a lot of the "8 42" were factory applied but "10 42", "11 42" & "12 42" could be stretching it a bit too far.

As for when and where a reapplied soutache was added to a tropical sidecap, such as the one which started this thread. That is anyone' guess and comes down to what each individual collector is comfortable with and how much they are willing to pay,

Chris

Chris,

The main point imo is not the strict respect of timeframe acording official regulations as an absolut criteria,but is is an indicator to keep in mind.
The question is rather if this maker and particular factory started to produce some sidecaps without soutache at least in october 42 (#18), why then november 42 dated sidecaps should present a factory appliation of soutache again ?

derka

[90th Light]

Chris,

The main point imo is not the strict respect of timeframe acording official regulations as an absolut criteria,but is is an indicator to keep in mind.
The question is rather if this maker and particular factory started to produce some sidecaps without soutache at least in october 42 (#18), why then november 42 dated sidecaps should present a factory appliation of soutache again ?

derka

Hello derka,

I think we are saying the same thing. Some of the collectors out here felt that they could remember bundles of caps with soutache dated "8 42" but no one could remember any with soutache dated "10 42", "11 42" or "12 42"

Now may be memories are faded over time and there were some soutached caps with later dates. In the absence of any concrete proof however, "8 42" would also be a logical cut off point for this manufacturer in terms of the regulations.

In fact it raises the question, is a cap dated "10 42", "11 42" or "12 42" without soutache worth more than one with a soutache ???

Even "8 42" is now considered "hit and miss"

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Tim and everybody else

Thank you for your opinions. I guess I have a few things to say. Firstly anything I am selling has a 120% return policy period. I am here to stay in business not put myself out of business. I do not think I know everything nor will I probably ever. Having said that I am not sure if any of you were ever in the military but from Roman times to present day Afghanistan and perhaps Iran if it comes to it, what the regulations say and what actually happens and gets used especially during times of war does not always perscribe to the Queens Regulations and Orders or whatever countries orders you are following at that time. So I personally have no problem with this hat and like everthing, everybody is entitled to there opinions.
It is easy to be an armchair general Tim. Especially behind a computer monitor but when you actually have it in your hands it can and usualy is a different story. But again I dont know everything and perhaps you are the expert in this area. When does your book come out on third reich headgear? I wont bother responding as I am sure here it comes
Dave

Hi Dave,

This thread has explained the history of the Cw & HB sidecaps, and how many have had the soutache added post War. Sorry Dave but your example has so many red flags, soutache width, application, date, and the thread re-attaching the false front is missing. Just one of these "tells" is enough to throw doubt. Many collectors with vast knowledge & years of experience collecting tropical items have all agreed and shared their thoughts here.

You are just a dealer afterall, we here at the WAF understand. The more you have to explain why an item is good & make excuses, well, the less likely it is...

Picked up my first Brandt 842 (no soutache) in LA back in '87 while on leave from from the USMC. Which unit did/do You serve ?

Here is the CW example from Okt '42 without soutache.